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I mean of the choice is between that and crippling debt and a useless degree, he's making the objectively smart move. The fact that they were able to buy thing

I mean of the choice is between that and crippling debt and a useless degree, he's making the objectively smart move. The fact that they were able to buy things while living at home just drives the point home even more- he would not have the disposable income to make those purchases for many years if he decides to go to college.

jasonboyd 5y ago
Wut? Are those the only choices? Is there nothing in between? Lay off the drama. I don't feel like my degree was useless (and I'm not even working in the field I got a degree in) and I certainly didn't graduate with crippling debt.
- effingwewt 5y ago
  Survivorship bias with a N=1 doesn't change the absolute fact that most if not all degrees are worth far less than the debt taken on. Why your personal story is pertinent here is beyond me, OP was talking about the person in the article. It's not dramatic at all when we have 1.73[1] trillion in student loan debt, with an average of 39k each student. Starting your professional career years in debt is the definition of crippling debt. edit to add source [1] https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-statistics https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-statistics
  - crazy_horse 5y ago
    The new student also has the option of choosing a not worthless degree, greatly increasing their odds.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      Yup. It's trivial to google "starting salaries for XXX" before committing to a major and the loan.
  - jasonboyd 5y ago
    Claiming survivorship bias really makes it sound like we are talking about something much riskier than getting a college degree. I didn't survive, I planned. I got a two year degree from a local community college for a fraction of the price that those same credit hours would have cost at a university. I then went on to a modest in-state University to complete my four year degree. I can't put a sexy Ivy League college, or private college, or even a top-tier state university on my resume now but I didn't graduate with crippling debt. That was the trade off I made. Starting your professional career in debt is nobody's definition of "crippling debt". Whether 39k is too much student loan debt really depends on what the expected future earning potential is for a given degree. A quick search turns up plenty of resources that can help somebody make decisions about how much student loan debt they can comfortably or safely take on. Here is a teacher's guide[1] (it's a PDF link) from the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau one could use as a starting point. [1] https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/documents/cfpb_building_block_activities_understanding-how-much-student-debt-afford_guide.pdf https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/documents/cfpb_building_...
    - effingwewt 5y ago
      Oh I completely agree it can be done. But let's consider- did you have children? Were you able to love at home? Did you have to work full-time? Did you need financial aid? There are just a whole lot of variables here. If you go to college broke, and come out in debt, and are then in debt for years after (I don't know offhand the average) then yes that's crippling debt. When figured against future earnings and actual take-home profit, how will those numbers work out for someone like that? Chances are, not well. Not everyone can just 'learn to program' to get a cushy 120k+/yr job. Also some people with families take longer than 2 years just for an associates degree. This is really survivorship bias wkth N=1.
pwthornton 5y ago
He works as a landscaper in Minnesota, which I presume does not offer robust employment year round. Even if he could work all seasons doing landscaping, his pay would come out to $26,000 a year, assuming he takes no days off. I am not sure this is a smart move. It seems like he is hoping his music career pans out, but we aren't given a lot of insight into his talent level there.
- effingwewt 5y ago
  I mean it doesn't necessarily mean staying at whatever job forever. But a well-paying trade like Electrician, especially commercial pays better than many degrees. We need a bootcamp for schools, there is just too much of a bullshit moat around degrees IMHO.

jasonboyd 5y ago

Wut? Are those the only choices? Is there nothing in between? Lay off the drama. I don't feel like my degree was useless (and I'm not even working in the field I got a degree in) and I certainly didn't graduate with crippling debt.

effingwewt 5y ago
Survivorship bias with a N=1 doesn't change the absolute fact that most if not all degrees are worth far less than the debt taken on. Why your personal story is pertinent here is beyond me, OP was talking about the person in the article. It's not dramatic at all when we have 1.73[1] trillion in student loan debt, with an average of 39k each student. Starting your professional career years in debt is the definition of crippling debt. edit to add source [1] https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-statistics https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-statistics
- crazy_horse 5y ago
  The new student also has the option of choosing a not worthless degree, greatly increasing their odds.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Yup. It's trivial to google "starting salaries for XXX" before committing to a major and the loan.
- jasonboyd 5y ago
  Claiming survivorship bias really makes it sound like we are talking about something much riskier than getting a college degree. I didn't survive, I planned. I got a two year degree from a local community college for a fraction of the price that those same credit hours would have cost at a university. I then went on to a modest in-state University to complete my four year degree. I can't put a sexy Ivy League college, or private college, or even a top-tier state university on my resume now but I didn't graduate with crippling debt. That was the trade off I made. Starting your professional career in debt is nobody's definition of "crippling debt". Whether 39k is too much student loan debt really depends on what the expected future earning potential is for a given degree. A quick search turns up plenty of resources that can help somebody make decisions about how much student loan debt they can comfortably or safely take on. Here is a teacher's guide[1] (it's a PDF link) from the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau one could use as a starting point. [1] https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/documents/cfpb_building_block_activities_understanding-how-much-student-debt-afford_guide.pdf https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/documents/cfpb_building_...
  - effingwewt 5y ago
    Oh I completely agree it can be done. But let's consider- did you have children? Were you able to love at home? Did you have to work full-time? Did you need financial aid? There are just a whole lot of variables here. If you go to college broke, and come out in debt, and are then in debt for years after (I don't know offhand the average) then yes that's crippling debt. When figured against future earnings and actual take-home profit, how will those numbers work out for someone like that? Chances are, not well. Not everyone can just 'learn to program' to get a cushy 120k+/yr job. Also some people with families take longer than 2 years just for an associates degree. This is really survivorship bias wkth N=1.

pwthornton 5y ago

He works as a landscaper in Minnesota, which I presume does not offer robust employment year round. Even if he could work all seasons doing landscaping, his pay would come out to $26,000 a year, assuming he takes no days off. I am not sure this is a smart move. It seems like he is hoping his music career pans out, but we aren't given a lot of insight into his talent level there.

effingwewt 5y ago
I mean it doesn't necessarily mean staying at whatever job forever. But a well-paying trade like Electrician, especially commercial pays better than many degrees. We need a bootcamp for schools, there is just too much of a bullshit moat around degrees IMHO.