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Why is there a false dichotomy that it's the vaccine or nothing? Why can't there just be a better vaccine. What incentive do pharma companies even have to mak

by Andys 5y ago

Why is there a false dichotomy that it's the vaccine or nothing? Why can't there just be a better vaccine. What incentive do pharma companies even have to make a better vaccine, rather than one that is just "good enough" to be shipped as a product to a ready, desperate market.

NamTaf 5y ago
Let's put it into context: the current batch of covid vaccines are spectacularly effective and compare favourably to vaccines we have for other diseases that are the result of decades of research. It really is hard to overstate how shockingly effecttive these covid vaccines are for being 'gen1' ones. They were genuinely a shock to the scientific community when their efficacy results were first announced, especially considering that other attempts at coronavirus vaccines had been relatively ineffective. For example, Varicella is 85% effective against any infecttion and approx 100% against severe infection. [1]. Polio is about 90% with 2 doses. [2] Influenza vaccines sit at about 40-60%. [3] Of course, it's also important to point out that they are improving them. Work is already underway to produce vaccines targetting the Delta strain more directly, in an effort to resolve some of the effectiveness loss that gen1 vaccines have against it. Indeed, this is one of the major advantages of mRNA vaccines - the iteration time from new design to new drug is a matter of weeks, so overall iteration for boosters is similarly shortened. This is extremely attractive for use against influenza and coronavirus which mutate fairly rapidly. The incentive for pharma groups to do this is twofold: 1) the US/UK and other similarly vaccinated populations will want boosters and will pay for them, and 2) that the vaccine status outside of the US/UK is radically different, with most countries barely scraping 10-20% of their population vaccinated. There's still a lot of people needing vaccines. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-effective-duration.htm https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-effective... [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-dur... [3]: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm
- Andys 5y ago
  Thankyou for replying, but I feel you are reinforcing the dichotomy I described: you are saying because it is effective in one dimension (eg. reducing deaths), we should live with any inadequacies. There is certainly an incentive to make a mostly safe and effective vaccine, but what incentive is there to make the best one possible? Especially when they are given complete indemnity for their decisions, and walking through preopened gates of government approvals. I feel there is a big moral hazard here that we just hand-wave away.
  - phonon 5y ago
    "The mRNA Vaccines Are Extraordinary, but Novavax Is Even Better" https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-n...
bamboozled 5y ago
Because it is what we have now? A better vaccine is currently not a reality, it doesn't exist, it's not readily available. Why the false dichotomy that only big pharma can do research and produce something?

by Andys 5y ago

NamTaf 5y ago

Let's put it into context: the current batch of covid vaccines are spectacularly effective and compare favourably to vaccines we have for other diseases that are the result of decades of research. It really is hard to overstate how shockingly effecttive these covid vaccines are for being 'gen1' ones. They were genuinely a shock to the scientific community when their efficacy results were first announced, especially considering that other attempts at coronavirus vaccines had been relatively ineffective. For example, Varicella is 85% effective against any infecttion and approx 100% against severe infection. [1]. Polio is about 90% with 2 doses. [2] Influenza vaccines sit at about 40-60%. [3] Of course, it's also important to point out that they are improving them. Work is already underway to produce vaccines targetting the Delta strain more directly, in an effort to resolve some of the effectiveness loss that gen1 vaccines have against it. Indeed, this is one of the major advantages of mRNA vaccines - the iteration time from new design to new drug is a matter of weeks, so overall iteration for boosters is similarly shortened. This is extremely attractive for use against influenza and coronavirus which mutate fairly rapidly. The incentive for pharma groups to do this is twofold: 1) the US/UK and other similarly vaccinated populations will want boosters and will pay for them, and 2) that the vaccine status outside of the US/UK is radically different, with most countries barely scraping 10-20% of their population vaccinated. There's still a lot of people needing vaccines. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-effective-duration.htm https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-effective... [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-dur... [3]: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm

Andys 5y ago
Thankyou for replying, but I feel you are reinforcing the dichotomy I described: you are saying because it is effective in one dimension (eg. reducing deaths), we should live with any inadequacies. There is certainly an incentive to make a mostly safe and effective vaccine, but what incentive is there to make the best one possible? Especially when they are given complete indemnity for their decisions, and walking through preopened gates of government approvals. I feel there is a big moral hazard here that we just hand-wave away.
- phonon 5y ago
  "The mRNA Vaccines Are Extraordinary, but Novavax Is Even Better" https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-n...

bamboozled 5y ago

Because it is what we have now? A better vaccine is currently not a reality, it doesn't exist, it's not readily available. Why the false dichotomy that only big pharma can do research and produce something?