4 ms·

> what does Protonmail offer in terms of privacy that is better than GMail or Outlook, given that USA and Swiss are both adhere to democratic standards. Well f

by dngray 5y ago

> what does Protonmail offer in terms of privacy that is better than GMail or Outlook, given that USA and Swiss are both adhere to democratic standards. Well for a start the privacy policy of Gmail allows them to use your data for advertising purposes. Secondly, emails encrypted at rest, are still encrypted, so at least the body is protected. Unless you were receiving emails that were encrypted prior to being sent that wouldn't be the case with Gmail. The threat model for Protonmail is fairly clearly defined under the "ProtonMail recommended use cases". https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-threat-model/ https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-threat-model/ The fact still remains email was probably not the right tool for these people as there is a lot of data stored server side.

jjcon 5y ago
> Well for a start the privacy policy of Gmail allows them to use your data for advertising purposes. This is false - google stopped doing this for personal accounts many years ago (and never did for paid corporate). > emails encrypted at rest Google also encrypts at rest
- neltnerb 5y ago
  Can Google decrypt without your permission? Honest question, because that's the obvious difference (if you believe ProtonMail claims).
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
    Can you access your e-mail if you lose your phone, forget your password, get a new SIM card, and successfully go through account recovery? There is your answer.
    - neltnerb 5y ago
      I know that I cannot access my protonmail email under a wide variety of circumstances that I make efforts to avoid. Two of them involve forgetting complicated passwords, either of which would render my entire (historical) email vault unreadable. But it could absolutely be security theater. What I have no idea about is Google. Do they even need to do anything targeting you in order to decrypt the data or not? Obviously they can modify your software with a remote update such that they can capture your decryption password, but that's a lot more work than querying a database and using a master key that Google has on hand for this sort of thing.
      - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
        For Google (and almost every provider that isn't very specifically targeting the highest levels of security at the expense of usability), the answer to the rhetorical question I posed is "yes", which implies that they can read your mail, without having to target you or anything you have. While (as you correctly pointed out) the fact that you lose access to the data if you lose your passphrase doesn't prove that the data is completely inaccessible without it, the opposite (being able to access the data even if you forget/lose all your secrets/keys) conclusively proves that such access is possible.
    - dngray 5y ago
      > Can you access your e-mail if you lose your phone, forget your password, get a new SIM card, and successfully go through account recovery? You can't. But this really doesn't answer if there was a special way for law enforcement, which I don't believe there is.
      - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
        The question was about Google, and there (as with almost any other provider) you can. Most users would be pretty upset (no sarcasm) if something so small (sarcasm) as losing all their means to authenticate actually caused them to lose data.
  - jjcon 5y ago
    Yes google can, but if Protonmail can be compelled by a proxy foreign government to start logging an individuals IP, they could easily collect your decryption key with a targeted attack as well.
    - sneak 5y ago
      Alternately, they could just log plaintext emails as they come in, before being encrypted.
      - neltnerb 5y ago
        Right, of course. I'm talking about decrypting the past messages. Obviously they can modify their software to capture your decryption password, my question is more out of curiosity than it being a serious advantage against a state actor targeting you specifically. I am fairly sure that protonmail cannot do this without modifying the software to target me by capturing the decryption password. Of course they can always capture plaintext messages as they come in, we can only assume they don't keep records of that. If that's true, and we only have their word for that, it would make any requests forward focused, like a wire tap rather than a search of old bank records. They can't necessarily access old emails without explicit effort. It's not some insurmountable barrier, and I don't mean to suggest it is. It's trivial to think of at least three ways to work around it, assuming you are still logging in. But it is a difference in design.
- dngray 5y ago
  > This is false - google stopped doing this for personal accounts many years ago. Does seem to be the case https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/26/google-will-stop-scanning-content-of-personal-emails https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/26/google-wi... > (and never did for paid corporate). We weren't talking about Workspaces. However that said, people logged into gmail generally use google search so they get to use all the data collected from that and youtube videos you watch so I don't think it really matters too much. https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/7019460?hl=en https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/7019460?hl=en With ProtonMail they can't actually read the contents of your emails, even for law enforcement, whereas Google certainly would be able to hand over entire copies.
  - jjcon 5y ago
    But if Protonmail can be compelled by a proxy foreign government to start logging an individuals IP, they could easily collect your decryption key and therefore your emails with a targeted attack as well.

by dngray 5y ago

jjcon 5y ago

> Well for a start the privacy policy of Gmail allows them to use your data for advertising purposes. This is false - google stopped doing this for personal accounts many years ago (and never did for paid corporate). > emails encrypted at rest Google also encrypts at rest

neltnerb 5y ago
Can Google decrypt without your permission? Honest question, because that's the obvious difference (if you believe ProtonMail claims).
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  Can you access your e-mail if you lose your phone, forget your password, get a new SIM card, and successfully go through account recovery? There is your answer.
  - neltnerb 5y ago
    I know that I cannot access my protonmail email under a wide variety of circumstances that I make efforts to avoid. Two of them involve forgetting complicated passwords, either of which would render my entire (historical) email vault unreadable. But it could absolutely be security theater. What I have no idea about is Google. Do they even need to do anything targeting you in order to decrypt the data or not? Obviously they can modify your software with a remote update such that they can capture your decryption password, but that's a lot more work than querying a database and using a master key that Google has on hand for this sort of thing.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
      For Google (and almost every provider that isn't very specifically targeting the highest levels of security at the expense of usability), the answer to the rhetorical question I posed is "yes", which implies that they can read your mail, without having to target you or anything you have. While (as you correctly pointed out) the fact that you lose access to the data if you lose your passphrase doesn't prove that the data is completely inaccessible without it, the opposite (being able to access the data even if you forget/lose all your secrets/keys) conclusively proves that such access is possible.
  - dngray 5y ago
    > Can you access your e-mail if you lose your phone, forget your password, get a new SIM card, and successfully go through account recovery? You can't. But this really doesn't answer if there was a special way for law enforcement, which I don't believe there is.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
      The question was about Google, and there (as with almost any other provider) you can. Most users would be pretty upset (no sarcasm) if something so small (sarcasm) as losing all their means to authenticate actually caused them to lose data.
- jjcon 5y ago
  Yes google can, but if Protonmail can be compelled by a proxy foreign government to start logging an individuals IP, they could easily collect your decryption key with a targeted attack as well.
  - sneak 5y ago
    Alternately, they could just log plaintext emails as they come in, before being encrypted.
    - neltnerb 5y ago
      Right, of course. I'm talking about decrypting the past messages. Obviously they can modify their software to capture your decryption password, my question is more out of curiosity than it being a serious advantage against a state actor targeting you specifically. I am fairly sure that protonmail cannot do this without modifying the software to target me by capturing the decryption password. Of course they can always capture plaintext messages as they come in, we can only assume they don't keep records of that. If that's true, and we only have their word for that, it would make any requests forward focused, like a wire tap rather than a search of old bank records. They can't necessarily access old emails without explicit effort. It's not some insurmountable barrier, and I don't mean to suggest it is. It's trivial to think of at least three ways to work around it, assuming you are still logging in. But it is a difference in design.
dngray 5y ago
> This is false - google stopped doing this for personal accounts many years ago. Does seem to be the case https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/26/google-will-stop-scanning-content-of-personal-emails https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/26/google-wi... > (and never did for paid corporate). We weren't talking about Workspaces. However that said, people logged into gmail generally use google search so they get to use all the data collected from that and youtube videos you watch so I don't think it really matters too much. https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/7019460?hl=en https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/7019460?hl=en With ProtonMail they can't actually read the contents of your emails, even for law enforcement, whereas Google certainly would be able to hand over entire copies.
- jjcon 5y ago
  But if Protonmail can be compelled by a proxy foreign government to start logging an individuals IP, they could easily collect your decryption key and therefore your emails with a targeted attack as well.