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"The cleanliness of Tokyo, the diversity of New York and the social services of Stockholm: Billionaire Marc Lore has outlined his vision for a 5-million-person

by pcurve 5y ago

"The cleanliness of Tokyo, the diversity of New York and the social services of Stockholm: Billionaire Marc Lore has outlined his vision for a 5-million-person "new city in America" and appointed a world-famous architect to design it" "The mission of Telosa is to create a more equitable and sustainable future. That's our North Star." I admire their ambition, but they are underestimating people's preference for inequity as long as they're on the right side of the graph. I don't know if they're asking the right questions and solving for the right problems... their web site hasn't moved beyond vaporware phase. https://cityoftelosa.com/ https://cityoftelosa.com/

kiba 5y ago
What would it take for the middle class homeowners of America to prioritize housing for everyone rather than the price of their home?
- catillac 5y ago
  Framed like that it’s hard to imagine choosing one or the other and the answer might be intractable. A more interesting question might be: What would it take to align policies around housing for everyone with policies around increasing the prices of homes such that the two things are strongly positively correlated?
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Housing cannot simultaneously remain affordable and “be a good investment” (meaning increase at a rate faster than general inflation).
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      One might also question should land even be sold. Something like 20 or 30 year lease with re-evaluation of value at end might make more sense. Ofc, this would potentially lead to losing homes, but on other hand would allow redevelopment for increased density regularly.
- admax88qqq 5y ago
  Probably both buying out their current homes, and providing a more reliable way for them to build equity over their lifetimes.
- ttul 5y ago
  Maybe replacing income taxes largely with property taxes? If the home is not seen as a source of tax free imputed income, then other things become more attractive, like investing in startups. It’s not a crazy idea. Switzerland taxes the imputed rental income on your own home. 1. https://www.credit-suisse.com/articles/private-banking/2018/04/en/eigenmietwert-das-muessen-sie-wissen.html https://www.credit-suisse.com/articles/private-banking/2018/...
  - kiba 5y ago
    It's better to replace income taxes with land value tax, which doesn't tax the property built on it. Anyway, your proposal still run into the issue of acquiring political will. It may work after it's implemented, but not before it.
    - ttul 5y ago
      Yeah, the problem of political will is paramount. When a majority of voters are homeowners, there isn’t any will to reduce home values…
- nicoffeine 5y ago
  I found a pretty interesting theory reading about Germany, since their property values are extremely stable: 'Local German officials, like local leaders everywhere, seek bigger budgets to provide more and better services to their constituents. What’s different about Germany is that the way to get bigger budgets is to increase local populations. And, as Professor Buettner says, “Ultimately, to get people, municipalities will need to support housing.” The result is a system of incentives that is the opposite of “fiscal zoning”—the US practice of zoning land in ways that maximize local governments’ income and minimize their costs. In places with high sales taxes, such as Washington State, leaders zone more land for shopping centers. In places where residential property taxes are capped, such as California, they zone less land for homes and more for offices. In affluent suburbs, they often zone land for houses on large lots, excluding low-income people. Maximizing property values is such a central concern of local government in the United States that Dartmouth economist William Fischel developed the notion into an entire political theory. His “homevoter hypothesis” holds that local governments are almost single-mindedly focused on maximizing real estate values, because homeowners typically vote their home values in local elections. German jurisdictions gain financially by maximizing population, not house values, and because renters outnumber homeowners in the country, homevoters are not the dominant electoral force in local German elections. Renters are.' https://www.sightline.org/2021/05/27/yes-other-countries-do-housing-better-case-2-germany/ https://www.sightline.org/2021/05/27/yes-other-countries-do-...
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Do you think anyone else should act against their own interests, or just the middle class?
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    Not OP, but yes I think everyone should act against their own interests (when they are selfish) and instead act for the good of everyone
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      And you'll act this way just as soon as everyone else does first, or do you see yourself as being on the receiving end of the redistribution?
      - nicoburns 5y ago
        I'll vote for policies that have this affect, certainly. As a software developer I imagine my personal income would be lowered, but overall I still think I'd benefit from things like better healthcare and education provision, more accessible housing cost, not having to worry about my friends and family as much.
        throwawaylinux 5y ago
        So essentially the former -- you will only do this if everybody else is forced to. Which in itself is selfish, and against the greater good. The marginal utility of $1 for someone in poverty vastly outweighs the benefit you will get from it. So you don't need to wait for anything to pass a vote or become popular opinion to selflessly advance the greater good. I know of very few socialists who take advantage of this opportunity, unfortunately.
        prawn 5y ago
        I saw an election poster many years ago which I have acted on since, suggesting not to vote for yourself but for those less fortunate. Never forgot it.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > What would it take for the middle class homeowners of America to prioritize housing for everyone rather than the price of their home? Radically rewiring human nature.
Ekaros 5y ago
As someone living in small town on world scale. I wonder if even trying to aim at 5 million is doing things wrong... Might it be that real sweet spot is somewhere lower than that?
- reddog 5y ago
  That's an excellent point. I don't to live in a New York/Tokyo/Stockholm chimera, I want to live in a modern version of Mayberry or Grover's Corners.
- prawn 5y ago
  I live in a city with a population around 1.3 million and it's a massive, sprawling place. Takes an hour to drive across, without traffic. Even 200-300k people could be enough, unless you really want to be attracting international tours, have major league sporting teams, etc.
mistrial9 5y ago
> .. appointed a world-famous architect to design it" LOL - this is ignorant ! there are two common Master's tracks in the field, Architecture i.e. the design of buildings and interior spaces, and Urban Planning i.e. the design of multiple buildings in a functional way. Anyone would hire an Urban Planner to design urban spaces, not an Architect. source: 600 hours of working with Urban Planners in California
- prawn 5y ago
  "Bjarke Ingels Group ... is a ... group of architects, designers and builders operating within the fields of architecture, urbanism, research and development." They have 500+ staff and think it'd be a safe bet that they have urban planners in their existing mix. Their job opportunities page indicates they're hiring more.

by pcurve 5y ago

kiba 5y ago

What would it take for the middle class homeowners of America to prioritize housing for everyone rather than the price of their home?

catillac 5y ago
Framed like that it’s hard to imagine choosing one or the other and the answer might be intractable. A more interesting question might be: What would it take to align policies around housing for everyone with policies around increasing the prices of homes such that the two things are strongly positively correlated?
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Housing cannot simultaneously remain affordable and “be a good investment” (meaning increase at a rate faster than general inflation).
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    One might also question should land even be sold. Something like 20 or 30 year lease with re-evaluation of value at end might make more sense. Ofc, this would potentially lead to losing homes, but on other hand would allow redevelopment for increased density regularly.
admax88qqq 5y ago
Probably both buying out their current homes, and providing a more reliable way for them to build equity over their lifetimes.
ttul 5y ago
Maybe replacing income taxes largely with property taxes? If the home is not seen as a source of tax free imputed income, then other things become more attractive, like investing in startups. It’s not a crazy idea. Switzerland taxes the imputed rental income on your own home. 1. https://www.credit-suisse.com/articles/private-banking/2018/04/en/eigenmietwert-das-muessen-sie-wissen.html https://www.credit-suisse.com/articles/private-banking/2018/...
- kiba 5y ago
  It's better to replace income taxes with land value tax, which doesn't tax the property built on it. Anyway, your proposal still run into the issue of acquiring political will. It may work after it's implemented, but not before it.
  - ttul 5y ago
    Yeah, the problem of political will is paramount. When a majority of voters are homeowners, there isn’t any will to reduce home values…
nicoffeine 5y ago
I found a pretty interesting theory reading about Germany, since their property values are extremely stable: 'Local German officials, like local leaders everywhere, seek bigger budgets to provide more and better services to their constituents. What’s different about Germany is that the way to get bigger budgets is to increase local populations. And, as Professor Buettner says, “Ultimately, to get people, municipalities will need to support housing.” The result is a system of incentives that is the opposite of “fiscal zoning”—the US practice of zoning land in ways that maximize local governments’ income and minimize their costs. In places with high sales taxes, such as Washington State, leaders zone more land for shopping centers. In places where residential property taxes are capped, such as California, they zone less land for homes and more for offices. In affluent suburbs, they often zone land for houses on large lots, excluding low-income people. Maximizing property values is such a central concern of local government in the United States that Dartmouth economist William Fischel developed the notion into an entire political theory. His “homevoter hypothesis” holds that local governments are almost single-mindedly focused on maximizing real estate values, because homeowners typically vote their home values in local elections. German jurisdictions gain financially by maximizing population, not house values, and because renters outnumber homeowners in the country, homevoters are not the dominant electoral force in local German elections. Renters are.' https://www.sightline.org/2021/05/27/yes-other-countries-do-housing-better-case-2-germany/ https://www.sightline.org/2021/05/27/yes-other-countries-do-...
throwawaylinux 5y ago
Do you think anyone else should act against their own interests, or just the middle class?
- nicoburns 5y ago
  Not OP, but yes I think everyone should act against their own interests (when they are selfish) and instead act for the good of everyone
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    And you'll act this way just as soon as everyone else does first, or do you see yourself as being on the receiving end of the redistribution?
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      I'll vote for policies that have this affect, certainly. As a software developer I imagine my personal income would be lowered, but overall I still think I'd benefit from things like better healthcare and education provision, more accessible housing cost, not having to worry about my friends and family as much.
      - throwawaylinux 5y ago
        So essentially the former -- you will only do this if everybody else is forced to. Which in itself is selfish, and against the greater good. The marginal utility of $1 for someone in poverty vastly outweighs the benefit you will get from it. So you don't need to wait for anything to pass a vote or become popular opinion to selflessly advance the greater good. I know of very few socialists who take advantage of this opportunity, unfortunately.
      - prawn 5y ago
        I saw an election poster many years ago which I have acted on since, suggesting not to vote for yourself but for those less fortunate. Never forgot it.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> What would it take for the middle class homeowners of America to prioritize housing for everyone rather than the price of their home? Radically rewiring human nature.

Ekaros 5y ago

As someone living in small town on world scale. I wonder if even trying to aim at 5 million is doing things wrong... Might it be that real sweet spot is somewhere lower than that?

reddog 5y ago
That's an excellent point. I don't to live in a New York/Tokyo/Stockholm chimera, I want to live in a modern version of Mayberry or Grover's Corners.
prawn 5y ago
I live in a city with a population around 1.3 million and it's a massive, sprawling place. Takes an hour to drive across, without traffic. Even 200-300k people could be enough, unless you really want to be attracting international tours, have major league sporting teams, etc.

mistrial9 5y ago

> .. appointed a world-famous architect to design it" LOL - this is ignorant ! there are two common Master's tracks in the field, Architecture i.e. the design of buildings and interior spaces, and Urban Planning i.e. the design of multiple buildings in a functional way. Anyone would hire an Urban Planner to design urban spaces, not an Architect. source: 600 hours of working with Urban Planners in California

prawn 5y ago
"Bjarke Ingels Group ... is a ... group of architects, designers and builders operating within the fields of architecture, urbanism, research and development." They have 500+ staff and think it'd be a safe bet that they have urban planners in their existing mix. Their job opportunities page indicates they're hiring more.