5 ms·

Instead of yet another app/platform, why not Matrix protocol?

kevincox 5y ago
Especially interesting as they intend to support a matrix bridge: https://revolt.chat/roadmap#checkbox40 https://revolt.chat/roadmap#checkbox40. It seems like it would be easier to just use Matrix "natively" and then you also have a mostly-working Discord bridge for free. Plus the likely value here is largely the client, so you can consider reusing, or at least building on top of an existing matrix server.
- hammyhavoc 5y ago
  Completely agreed.
- rglullis 5y ago
  Another interesting point is that Conduit (Rust-based implementation of the Matrix homeserver) got a beta release last week.
  - hammyhavoc 5y ago
    I'm closely following Conduit and Dendrite. Running a Synapse server currently. Staying on topic, Dendrite is written in Rust, meant to be super performant. Stoked for hybrid-P2P via Bluetooth LE for offline usage. Edit: looks like I got confused. Conduit is written in Rust. Ssenica was right, Dendrite is written in Go. To coffee I go!
    - sseneca 5y ago
      Dendrite is written in Go, Conduit is written in Rust
      - hammyhavoc 5y ago
        Oops! Well spotted! Edited my comment to reflect that.
- schmorptron 5y ago
  On the other hand, matrix was explicity designed with bridging in mind, and if this is designed to have a good matrix bridge natively, it'll probably work pretty well without having to stay up to date and without having to implement the full matrix spec.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    But the point is: why? Why yet-another messaging protocol? If they wanted to have a different client (which I totally understand, given that Element client is currently just a poor mix of all of Slack and Whatsapp and Discord), they could just focus on the client.
    - schmorptron 5y ago
      I dunno, maybe it's easier for them than to implement quite a large existing spec, or they just wanted to.
      - rglullis 5y ago
        > easier (...) to implement quite a large existing spec They don't have to implement all of the spec themselves. Nothing stopping them to leverage the existing base libraries and SDKs to build the functionality for the client. > or they just wanted to. Well, ok, but when I see such a strong manifestation of NIH syndrome it really reflects poorly on the project.
        nmaleki 5y ago
        I disagree, the use of MongoDB reflects poorly on the future of the project. In my opinion, a custom protocol does not. They intend for the app to be an alternative to a giant like Discord, so the protocol being custom leaves them with the freedom to introduce features Matrix didn't consider. In opposition of NIH syndrome, using others work often locks you into the framework of their thinking, which can often be flawed. So to make improvements within the framework, you must think outside of it. Matrix might not be flawed, but it is purpose built for a specific task, a task that likely won't capture all possible use cases of this project. Perhaps it would be the right move to use in the beginning, but once the project matures it may become a limitation.
Zomatree 5y ago
Hi, one of the revolt developers here, we wanted something contained and selfhosted instead of something federated, see https://developers.revolt.chat/faq/federation https://developers.revolt.chat/faq/federation on why we dont plan on adding federation
- hammyhavoc 5y ago
  You aren't forced to federate with Matrix. It's as self-contained as you want/require it to be.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Can't hate you for being opinionated, and I appreciate that you drew a line somewhere. However, saying that 'nobody actually wants it' is at the very least a little disingenuous. Transitioning to self-hosted and distributed systems is totally the way to go, but we're inevitably going to run into a systems problem. IRC struggled to reach the mainstream because of how fractured it was, and if you don't do anything to address that you're liable to run into the same issue again.
- ringworld 5y ago
  Suggestion: lift yourself up without tearing others down. Remove the comments at the end about Matrix leaving a sour taste in your mouth and being buggy: the reasons on this link are sound, engage your audience with all positive energy.
  - holler 5y ago
    well said, that's a good rule for life in general
- stiltzkin 5y ago
  > From personal experience, I’ve generally found federated protocols to not be suitable for real time communication, Matrix is incredibly buggy at times and it’s left a sour taste in my mouth. Not sure this is a good reason for not adding it, Element is not buggy at all.
geozh 5y ago
> why not Matrix protocol? here's why: https://gist.github.com/maxidorius/5736fd09c9194b7a6dc03b6b8d7220d0 https://gist.github.com/maxidorius/5736fd09c9194b7a6dc03b6b8... you're a clown if you think Matrix or this new Revolt thing are any better than the garbage fire that Discord is

Especially interesting as they intend to support a matrix bridge: https://revolt.chat/roadmap#checkbox40 https://revolt.chat/roadmap#checkbox40. It seems like it would be easier to just use Matrix "natively" and then you also have a mostly-working Discord bridge for free. Plus the likely value here is largely the client, so you can consider reusing, or at least building on top of an existing matrix server.

hammyhavoc 5y ago
Completely agreed.
rglullis 5y ago
Another interesting point is that Conduit (Rust-based implementation of the Matrix homeserver) got a beta release last week.
- hammyhavoc 5y ago
  I'm closely following Conduit and Dendrite. Running a Synapse server currently. Staying on topic, Dendrite is written in Rust, meant to be super performant. Stoked for hybrid-P2P via Bluetooth LE for offline usage. Edit: looks like I got confused. Conduit is written in Rust. Ssenica was right, Dendrite is written in Go. To coffee I go!
  - sseneca 5y ago
    Dendrite is written in Go, Conduit is written in Rust
    - hammyhavoc 5y ago
      Oops! Well spotted! Edited my comment to reflect that.
schmorptron 5y ago
On the other hand, matrix was explicity designed with bridging in mind, and if this is designed to have a good matrix bridge natively, it'll probably work pretty well without having to stay up to date and without having to implement the full matrix spec.
- rglullis 5y ago
  But the point is: why? Why yet-another messaging protocol? If they wanted to have a different client (which I totally understand, given that Element client is currently just a poor mix of all of Slack and Whatsapp and Discord), they could just focus on the client.
  - schmorptron 5y ago
    I dunno, maybe it's easier for them than to implement quite a large existing spec, or they just wanted to.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      > easier (...) to implement quite a large existing spec They don't have to implement all of the spec themselves. Nothing stopping them to leverage the existing base libraries and SDKs to build the functionality for the client. > or they just wanted to. Well, ok, but when I see such a strong manifestation of NIH syndrome it really reflects poorly on the project.
      - nmaleki 5y ago
        I disagree, the use of MongoDB reflects poorly on the future of the project. In my opinion, a custom protocol does not. They intend for the app to be an alternative to a giant like Discord, so the protocol being custom leaves them with the freedom to introduce features Matrix didn't consider. In opposition of NIH syndrome, using others work often locks you into the framework of their thinking, which can often be flawed. So to make improvements within the framework, you must think outside of it. Matrix might not be flawed, but it is purpose built for a specific task, a task that likely won't capture all possible use cases of this project. Perhaps it would be the right move to use in the beginning, but once the project matures it may become a limitation.

Zomatree 5y ago

Hi, one of the revolt developers here, we wanted something contained and selfhosted instead of something federated, see https://developers.revolt.chat/faq/federation https://developers.revolt.chat/faq/federation on why we dont plan on adding federation

hammyhavoc 5y ago
You aren't forced to federate with Matrix. It's as self-contained as you want/require it to be.
smoldesu 5y ago
Can't hate you for being opinionated, and I appreciate that you drew a line somewhere. However, saying that 'nobody actually wants it' is at the very least a little disingenuous. Transitioning to self-hosted and distributed systems is totally the way to go, but we're inevitably going to run into a systems problem. IRC struggled to reach the mainstream because of how fractured it was, and if you don't do anything to address that you're liable to run into the same issue again.
ringworld 5y ago
Suggestion: lift yourself up without tearing others down. Remove the comments at the end about Matrix leaving a sour taste in your mouth and being buggy: the reasons on this link are sound, engage your audience with all positive energy.
- holler 5y ago
  well said, that's a good rule for life in general
stiltzkin 5y ago
> From personal experience, I’ve generally found federated protocols to not be suitable for real time communication, Matrix is incredibly buggy at times and it’s left a sour taste in my mouth. Not sure this is a good reason for not adding it, Element is not buggy at all.

geozh 5y ago

> why not Matrix protocol? here's why: https://gist.github.com/maxidorius/5736fd09c9194b7a6dc03b6b8d7220d0 https://gist.github.com/maxidorius/5736fd09c9194b7a6dc03b6b8... you're a clown if you think Matrix or this new Revolt thing are any better than the garbage fire that Discord is