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PM's marketing has long said they're special because they're Swiss. That's been their main marketing push every time I looked into them. Turns out that's BS. S

PM's marketing has long said they're special because they're Swiss. That's been their main marketing push every time I looked into them. Turns out that's BS. So I don't believe we should criticize PM for their handling of this situation. We should criticize PM for lying to their customers.

masklinn 5y ago
> We should criticize PM for lying to their customers. Lying about what exactly? They chose switzerland because it has excellent civil and privacy protection, not because it’s a lawless hellscape, and they never hid that and that they were under swiss law.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > They chose switzerland because it has excellent civil and privacy protection Source for Switzerland being any better than other countries when it comes to human rights? A few examples come to mind that would suggest otherwise... > not because it’s a lawless hellscape How is protecting activists who try to change society for the better "a lawless hellscape"?
  - yaris 5y ago
    While there may be examples of activists being oppressed by Swiss law, in this particular incident activists where messing with others' property which is hardly changing society for the better.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      Two important things: 1) We're talking about Protonmail cooperating with a random foreign police (via request from their local police) without any form of judicial oversight. As a hosting provider with big money like Protonmail, the only fair thing to go is to go to court to have a judge examine the legality of the request in detail (not just as a friendly police request) before you collaborate at all with them. 2) We're talking about a bunch of anti-gentrification activists who requisitionned/squatted empty buildings to house homeless people and serve food for the neighborhood. Those buildings were owned by a landowning mafia which, as you can see, has long-reaching arms: when was the last time you heard of Europol/Interpol being involved in the repression of a squat that lasted a few months? This is a clear case of political repression, not any ordinary criminal case.
      - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        > cooperating with a random foreign police (via request from their local police) without any form of judicial oversight I believe the warrant had to be signed off on by a Swiss court.
        southerntofu 5y ago
        This may well be the case, as most police requests do. However, you're probably aware that these requests are somewhat-automatically approved by judges who have no time to examine them all, want to stay cozy with law enforcement (have very friendly relationships with prosecutors, despite that being against the separation of powers), and are counting on hosts to protest illegal requests.
        JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        > these requests are somewhat-automatically approved by judges You said there was no judicial oversight. That is false. The claim that Swiss judges want to stay cozy with law enforcement requires a lot more support.
        southerntofu 5y ago
        To me, being forced to compel with an order you had no chance to hear justification for, and/or had not chance to defend yourself against, is not "judicial oversight". It's an order signed by a judge alright, that doesn't make it "rule of law"-compliant. > The claim that Swiss judges want to stay cozy with law enforcement requires a lot more support. Unfortunately, there's very little serious studies of the corruption of the judicial system in the global north. There's massive scandals, but never wide anti-corruption schemes. You may be interested to read Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish, which is a very serious examination of why "Justice is an independent power" is a gross misrepresentation at best.
      - yaris 5y ago
        While I have no data to discuss the second item, regarding the first item you seem to be misinformed. PM did _not_ cooperate with a random foreign police. PM had to execute on _their local authorities_ order, and judicial oversight was present - three authoritative entities in two countries had to approve the order. If this is not judicial oversight then my imagination fails to suggest what could serve as such oversight. And in their clarification PM state that there was no possibility to challenge the order in court (maybe because the order came from a court already?).
yaris 5y ago
What did you expect from their "swiss-ness"? Because to me being swiss means nothing more than having to obey swiss law (which is still better than having to obey EU laws or US laws).
istingray 5y ago
Yes, exactly this.

masklinn 5y ago

> We should criticize PM for lying to their customers. Lying about what exactly? They chose switzerland because it has excellent civil and privacy protection, not because it’s a lawless hellscape, and they never hid that and that they were under swiss law.

southerntofu 5y ago
> They chose switzerland because it has excellent civil and privacy protection Source for Switzerland being any better than other countries when it comes to human rights? A few examples come to mind that would suggest otherwise... > not because it’s a lawless hellscape How is protecting activists who try to change society for the better "a lawless hellscape"?
- yaris 5y ago
  While there may be examples of activists being oppressed by Swiss law, in this particular incident activists where messing with others' property which is hardly changing society for the better.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    Two important things: 1) We're talking about Protonmail cooperating with a random foreign police (via request from their local police) without any form of judicial oversight. As a hosting provider with big money like Protonmail, the only fair thing to go is to go to court to have a judge examine the legality of the request in detail (not just as a friendly police request) before you collaborate at all with them. 2) We're talking about a bunch of anti-gentrification activists who requisitionned/squatted empty buildings to house homeless people and serve food for the neighborhood. Those buildings were owned by a landowning mafia which, as you can see, has long-reaching arms: when was the last time you heard of Europol/Interpol being involved in the repression of a squat that lasted a few months? This is a clear case of political repression, not any ordinary criminal case.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > cooperating with a random foreign police (via request from their local police) without any form of judicial oversight I believe the warrant had to be signed off on by a Swiss court.
      - southerntofu 5y ago
        This may well be the case, as most police requests do. However, you're probably aware that these requests are somewhat-automatically approved by judges who have no time to examine them all, want to stay cozy with law enforcement (have very friendly relationships with prosecutors, despite that being against the separation of powers), and are counting on hosts to protest illegal requests.
        JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        > these requests are somewhat-automatically approved by judges You said there was no judicial oversight. That is false. The claim that Swiss judges want to stay cozy with law enforcement requires a lot more support.
        southerntofu 5y ago
        To me, being forced to compel with an order you had no chance to hear justification for, and/or had not chance to defend yourself against, is not "judicial oversight". It's an order signed by a judge alright, that doesn't make it "rule of law"-compliant. > The claim that Swiss judges want to stay cozy with law enforcement requires a lot more support. Unfortunately, there's very little serious studies of the corruption of the judicial system in the global north. There's massive scandals, but never wide anti-corruption schemes. You may be interested to read Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish, which is a very serious examination of why "Justice is an independent power" is a gross misrepresentation at best.
    - yaris 5y ago
      While I have no data to discuss the second item, regarding the first item you seem to be misinformed. PM did _not_ cooperate with a random foreign police. PM had to execute on _their local authorities_ order, and judicial oversight was present - three authoritative entities in two countries had to approve the order. If this is not judicial oversight then my imagination fails to suggest what could serve as such oversight. And in their clarification PM state that there was no possibility to challenge the order in court (maybe because the order came from a court already?).

yaris 5y ago

What did you expect from their "swiss-ness"? Because to me being swiss means nothing more than having to obey swiss law (which is still better than having to obey EU laws or US laws).

istingray 5y ago

Yes, exactly this.