3 ms·

But isn't all this progress bought with the destruction of our environment? It isn't sustainable at all and we are basically betting we can switch to a sustaina

But isn't all this progress bought with the destruction of our environment? It isn't sustainable at all and we are basically betting we can switch to a sustainable model before everything starts breaking down.

Isinlor 5y ago
Climate change is no good, and we have to do better, but the past was even worse. Try to imagine near 50% child mortality on a global scale in 1800. That's the past. Today even the poorest regions in Africa have "only" ~15% child mortality.
- birksherty 5y ago
  The better things will not remain so for long. Many of the industry and technical progress came at a huge cost. It's the future generation who will bear it. Data conclusively indicates real-world climate change is tracking the IPCC's worst case scenario. https://youtu.be/fliCxyAwBWU https://youtu.be/fliCxyAwBWU
Gravityloss 5y ago
Well, many things in the environment are a lot worse now than 100 years ago, but some things are better. While there was much less industrial production, it was more polluting per output. Waste water cleaning, industrial process cleaning or in general taking care of garbage has improved a lot in the last sixty years in developed countries.
- birksherty 5y ago
  Why per output? To make it look better? Total is worse, more co2, more pollution, more oil spill in oceans, plastic in oceans even inside animals etc. It's better just for a selfish species.
  - Gravityloss 5y ago
    Well, in many places, since population and consumption per capita has plateaued, total pollution has reduced a lot. Some local anecdotes follow. Waste water cleaning plants were built, so human excrement wasn't dumped to the sea anymore. At some point district heating replaced coal and wood burned in houses. Double and triple glazing arrived. The metro started operating in the eighties, replacing a lot of buses. Lead gasoline was banned in the nineties as well. Cars got electronic ignition, fuel injection and catalytic converters. Diesel engines started having tightening regulations every few years. Waste water treatment was upgraded to even remove nitrogen. New bicycle highways were made, the metro is being extended, tram lines are being built, and just a few weeks ago many diesel bus lines were replaced by Chinese electric ones. Some things have gotten better, some things have gotten worse. But not everything has gotten worse.
    - birksherty 5y ago
      Some things are better only for humans. For every other species it's worse. The whole ecosystem is worse than ever. The better things will also become useless in few dacade as the climate is tracking the worst case scenario of the IPCC report.
      - Gravityloss 5y ago
        The wastewater cleaning is certainly better for marine life.
        birksherty 5y ago
        That's only one thing, overall there are way too much oil leaks and plastic in oceans, so it's silly to say things are better. Then there are things that are hidden like https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-environmental-disaster-ocean-ddt-sea-lions/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-environmental-disast... and https://v.redd.it/ayd4itr1kqg71 https://v.redd.it/ayd4itr1kqg71 Marine life halved in few decades https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/marine-wildlife-populations-have-halved-in-the-last-40-years-report-finds-10502547.html https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/marine-wil...

Isinlor 5y ago

Climate change is no good, and we have to do better, but the past was even worse. Try to imagine near 50% child mortality on a global scale in 1800. That's the past. Today even the poorest regions in Africa have "only" ~15% child mortality.

birksherty 5y ago
The better things will not remain so for long. Many of the industry and technical progress came at a huge cost. It's the future generation who will bear it. Data conclusively indicates real-world climate change is tracking the IPCC's worst case scenario. https://youtu.be/fliCxyAwBWU https://youtu.be/fliCxyAwBWU

Gravityloss 5y ago

Well, many things in the environment are a lot worse now than 100 years ago, but some things are better. While there was much less industrial production, it was more polluting per output. Waste water cleaning, industrial process cleaning or in general taking care of garbage has improved a lot in the last sixty years in developed countries.

birksherty 5y ago
Why per output? To make it look better? Total is worse, more co2, more pollution, more oil spill in oceans, plastic in oceans even inside animals etc. It's better just for a selfish species.
- Gravityloss 5y ago
  Well, in many places, since population and consumption per capita has plateaued, total pollution has reduced a lot. Some local anecdotes follow. Waste water cleaning plants were built, so human excrement wasn't dumped to the sea anymore. At some point district heating replaced coal and wood burned in houses. Double and triple glazing arrived. The metro started operating in the eighties, replacing a lot of buses. Lead gasoline was banned in the nineties as well. Cars got electronic ignition, fuel injection and catalytic converters. Diesel engines started having tightening regulations every few years. Waste water treatment was upgraded to even remove nitrogen. New bicycle highways were made, the metro is being extended, tram lines are being built, and just a few weeks ago many diesel bus lines were replaced by Chinese electric ones. Some things have gotten better, some things have gotten worse. But not everything has gotten worse.
  - birksherty 5y ago
    Some things are better only for humans. For every other species it's worse. The whole ecosystem is worse than ever. The better things will also become useless in few dacade as the climate is tracking the worst case scenario of the IPCC report.
    - Gravityloss 5y ago
      The wastewater cleaning is certainly better for marine life.
      - birksherty 5y ago
        That's only one thing, overall there are way too much oil leaks and plastic in oceans, so it's silly to say things are better. Then there are things that are hidden like https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-environmental-disaster-ocean-ddt-sea-lions/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-environmental-disast... and https://v.redd.it/ayd4itr1kqg71 https://v.redd.it/ayd4itr1kqg71 Marine life halved in few decades https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/marine-wildlife-populations-have-halved-in-the-last-40-years-report-finds-10502547.html https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/marine-wil...