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"Their homepage says..." Is the parent suggesting that no one should bother to read the Terms and Privacy Policy, linked to from the homepage. https://protonma
by o8r3oFTZPE 5y ago
"Their homepage says..."
Is the parent suggesting that no one should bother to read the Terms and Privacy Policy, linked to from the homepage. https://protonmail.com/privacy-policy https://protonmail.com/privacy-policy
Despite the parent's claim, the Privacy Policy says the company may log IP address. Temporarily. Irrespective of any request from local authorities regarding a specific user. IOW, they may log anyone's IP address temporarily regardless of whether the particular user is casuing trouble; they can log IP address for everyone. The policy says they log this data for the purposes of preventing fraud and abuse. The problem for privacy-conscious users is that if they log the data, then that entices authorities to try to successfully request it.
The policy, which imposes no obligations on the company BTW, reads as follows:
"IP Logging: By default, we do not keep permanent IP logs in relation with your use of the Services. However, IP logs may be kept temporarily to combat abuse and fraud, and your IP address may be retained permanently if you are engaged in activities that breach our terms and conditions (spamming, DDoS attacks against our infrastructure, brute force attacks, etc). The legal basis of this processing is our legitimate interest to protect our Services against nefarious activities."
There is nothing that says "By default we do not retain any logs". This clearly states they may be expected to retain IP logs. ("IP logs may be kept temporarily...")
But wait there's more.
"We will only disclose the limited user data we possess if we are instructed to do so by a fully binding request coming from the competent Swiss authorities (legal obligation)."
This clearly states the company may disclose the data they possess, e.g., IP logs collected to combat fraud and abuse, if in response to a request from competent local authorities.
Further down is a curious statement about decrypting messages.
"If a request is made for encrypted message content that we do not possess the ability to decrypt, the fully encrypted message content may be turned over."
Why include a statement such as this, specifically the part that says "that we do not possess the ability to decrypt". The company already specified it may disclose the data it possesses. This further statement suggests there could be some situation where they may have the ability to decrypt some messages. Besides their own communications with customers, why would they ever have encrypted messages that they can decrypt. They could state something like "If the request is made for encrypted communications addressed to us or sent by us, ...", but they do not. As such, their statement must include other messages, too.
- istingray 5y agoI pasted an email I sent to Protonmail above. If they can't come up with language that's clear, use text from their privacy policy verbatim. Start educating users not to trust anything but what's in the policy, and even treat that as adversarial.
- o8r3oFTZPE 5y agoDevils advocate: Why trust the policy. Can you enforce it. If yes, then how.
- istingray 5y agoAgreed -- "even treat that as adversarial".
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago> "IP Logging: By default, we do not keep permanent IP logs in relation with your use of the Services. However, IP logs may be kept temporarily to combat abuse and fraud, and your IP address may be retained permanently if you are engaged in activities that breach our terms and conditions (spamming, DDoS attacks against our infrastructure, brute force attacks, etc). The legal basis of this processing is our legitimate interest to protect our Services against nefarious activities." Just how transient do logs need to be to fit this criteria? Am guessing the 7 years or so we need for some of our specific logs might fit the temporary definition too.....
- o8r3oFTZPE 5y agoNothing is even defined. There is nothing in this policy that obligates the company to do, or restricts the company from doing, anything. This is the way most tech company "Privacy Policies" are written. There is a significant difference between a statement such as "We (Company) do not do X" versus a promise such as "Company shall not do X" or a statement such as "We do Y. We may do Z" versus a promise such as "Company shall do Y." Why not have our own "Policies" as users that we publish for tech companies to read. In them, we could describe what we do and what we do not do, and what we may or may not do. Tech companies could rely on these statements. You can see how silly that sounds. Yet users are expected to read and rely on hundreds of different "privacy policies", collection of non-binding statements like "We take privacy seriously".