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It’s not protection FROM your customers. It is protection FOR your customers. Most customers are not technically astute

shadowgovt 5y ago
A corporation is a power centralization, and government authority can lean on power centralization. In general, regardless of what their TOS say, never believe that a corporation can't be compelled by the law to do anything they could physically do. CEOs can be jailed; when's the last time we heard of one actually going to jail over user privacy?
- pessimizer 5y ago
  The point being made agrees with you, and is just saying that since protonmail can't help but obey sometimes, they should make the effort to educate their customers about that fact and whatever their customers can personally do to mitigate the risks of that fact.
- bigiain 5y ago
  > CEOs can be jailed; when's the last time we heard of one actually going to jail over user privacy? Ladar Levison from Lavabit came close. But even he admits that was because the FBI wanted to subvert every single Lavabit user's account (attempting vast overreach on the brazen assumption that "we are after Snowden" was going to pull the wool over everybody's eyes). Levison admits though, to having "responded to" at least two dozen subpoenas and complied with at least one warrant before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit#Suspension_and_gag_order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit#Suspension_and_gag_ord...
- andrepd 5y ago
  > CEOs can be jailed; when's the last time we heard of one actually going to jail, period.
- msh 5y ago
  The CEO of the phone company qwest claims that the insider trading charges he got prison for was only brought to court because he refused to allow the installation of NSA surveillance equipment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio
ivan_gammel 5y ago
A customer that specifically chooses Proton for privacy, must read and agree to privacy policy, which explicitly states, that Proton may in fact keep temporary IP logs and that user may opt in for login IP logs. Requests from authorities may ask for this kind of information and Proton will have to provide it. The „opt-in“ part for login logs is particularly interesting, because in fact Proton recommends this as a security best practice. Whether it’s in the best interest of the customer or not, it’s an open question. I would say, in a risk model, where threat of human rights violation by Swiss government is much lower than risks of unauthorized party accessing the account, it makes sense. Tough luck for the criminals that followed this advice. https://protonmail.com/privacy-policy https://protonmail.com/privacy-policy
- YLYvYkHeB2NRNT 5y ago
  Anyone that uses ANY electronic device to plan and arrange clandestine opetations - IS AN IDIOT.
  - istingray 5y ago
    Do tell, how do you plan your clandestine operations?
    - zwayhowder 5y ago
      By using the classics of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histiaeus#Ionian_revolt_(499-494_BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histiaeus#Ionian_revolt_(499-4... Sure the bitrate is a bit slow and it's UDP only but our governments have proved over and over again that they can't learn from history.
      - thaumasiotes 5y ago
        > In 499 BC, he shaved the head of his most trusted slave, tattooed a message on his head, and then waited for his hair to grow back. The slave was then sent to Aristagoras, who was instructed to shave the slave's head again and read the message, which told him to revolt against the Persians. Since this was a trusted slave, the tattoo seems unnecessary. The slave could just tell Aristagoras "Histiaeus says to revolt against the Persians".
OrvalWintermute 5y ago
If the tech. companies involved have monetized surveillance, and no I am not talking about the kind they do for advertising, but instead the $ for data on users/portal, all that jazz, fees for LE levels of access, cost for responses, etc the LE are also the customers too then?
istingray 5y ago
I'm fine with Proton treating my data as a liability. Give me the tools to take away that liability by only sending them noise through an anonymous email address. I will pay for that.

A corporation is a power centralization, and government authority can lean on power centralization. In general, regardless of what their TOS say, never believe that a corporation can't be compelled by the law to do anything they could physically do. CEOs can be jailed; when's the last time we heard of one actually going to jail over user privacy?

pessimizer 5y ago
The point being made agrees with you, and is just saying that since protonmail can't help but obey sometimes, they should make the effort to educate their customers about that fact and whatever their customers can personally do to mitigate the risks of that fact.
bigiain 5y ago
> CEOs can be jailed; when's the last time we heard of one actually going to jail over user privacy? Ladar Levison from Lavabit came close. But even he admits that was because the FBI wanted to subvert every single Lavabit user's account (attempting vast overreach on the brazen assumption that "we are after Snowden" was going to pull the wool over everybody's eyes). Levison admits though, to having "responded to" at least two dozen subpoenas and complied with at least one warrant before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit#Suspension_and_gag_order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit#Suspension_and_gag_ord...
andrepd 5y ago
> CEOs can be jailed; when's the last time we heard of one actually going to jail, period.
msh 5y ago
The CEO of the phone company qwest claims that the insider trading charges he got prison for was only brought to court because he refused to allow the installation of NSA surveillance equipment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio

ivan_gammel 5y ago

A customer that specifically chooses Proton for privacy, must read and agree to privacy policy, which explicitly states, that Proton may in fact keep temporary IP logs and that user may opt in for login IP logs. Requests from authorities may ask for this kind of information and Proton will have to provide it. The „opt-in“ part for login logs is particularly interesting, because in fact Proton recommends this as a security best practice. Whether it’s in the best interest of the customer or not, it’s an open question. I would say, in a risk model, where threat of human rights violation by Swiss government is much lower than risks of unauthorized party accessing the account, it makes sense. Tough luck for the criminals that followed this advice. https://protonmail.com/privacy-policy https://protonmail.com/privacy-policy

YLYvYkHeB2NRNT 5y ago
Anyone that uses ANY electronic device to plan and arrange clandestine opetations - IS AN IDIOT.
- istingray 5y ago
  Do tell, how do you plan your clandestine operations?
  - zwayhowder 5y ago
    By using the classics of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histiaeus#Ionian_revolt_(499-494_BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histiaeus#Ionian_revolt_(499-4... Sure the bitrate is a bit slow and it's UDP only but our governments have proved over and over again that they can't learn from history.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      > In 499 BC, he shaved the head of his most trusted slave, tattooed a message on his head, and then waited for his hair to grow back. The slave was then sent to Aristagoras, who was instructed to shave the slave's head again and read the message, which told him to revolt against the Persians. Since this was a trusted slave, the tattoo seems unnecessary. The slave could just tell Aristagoras "Histiaeus says to revolt against the Persians".

OrvalWintermute 5y ago

If the tech. companies involved have monetized surveillance, and no I am not talking about the kind they do for advertising, but instead the $ for data on users/portal, all that jazz, fees for LE levels of access, cost for responses, etc the LE are also the customers too then?

istingray 5y ago

I'm fine with Proton treating my data as a liability. Give me the tools to take away that liability by only sending them noise through an anonymous email address. I will pay for that.