5 ms·

No, if they were not collecting logs by default, then it is clearly not false advertising.

by COGlory 5y ago

polote 5y ago
So the default is when nobody ask for the logs? What the point of not collecting IP unless for the time it is useful?
- Sebb767 5y ago
  No history of when you logged in from where and, possibly, plausible deniability about about you being the only user of that account (through you'd probably need to prepare for this to be believable).
- Aachen 5y ago
  I mean it's either this or traffic analysis. If you use your clearnet IP address to do illegal things, it's nothing more than reasonable that you can get in trouble for it. This is also why I don't get protonmail in the first place. Unless you use pgp or equivalent, you'll always be subject to law enforcement. Just that protonmail cares more and caters more to activists and so might not give it out without checking that the asker is really legit and then give the minimal amount possible. But they'll always be able to turn over your emails and log IPs, it's not protonmail's fault the laws were voted into action like this.
lelandfe 5y ago
Technically correct but misleading. They tout that off-by-default statement on their homepage, underneath the header of "Anonymous Email," with the closing sentence of "Your privacy comes first." So why even market that? It provides no meaningful security.
- IlliOnato 5y ago
  Were _you_ mislead by this? Did you really expect a Switzerland-based company not to comply with law of the land? There is a difference between "available to police, not retroactively, and only with a valid warrant" and "available to any government agency constantly and in bulk, as well as to data-collecting commercial entities, Russian and Chinese hackers, and their dogs". Don't you agree?
  - kylehotchkiss 5y ago
    Really solid explanation of what you’re paying for as a proton customer - and despite this unfortunate situation for the French advocate is why myself and others will continue their paid ProtonMail plans
  - lelandfe 5y ago
    Fair point. I still don't think they've worded that well enough. I would probably not have read "By default" to have the context of "Unless asked to do so by authorities." They're not being as transparent as possible in their marketing, which is at odds with their allure of security.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Wouldn't they have to comply with a secret data collecting order? We are trusting they wouldn't comply or no one would make that request?
    - IlliOnato 5y ago
      As far as I know, Swiss law does not allow for "secret data collecting orders", unlike US after "Patriot Act". This is the benefit if being located in Switzerland, where banking is one of the main pillars of the economy and which historically has been much more supportive of personal privacy than most other countries. They eventually caved under US pressure on some things, so it's not such a "haven" as it used to be, but I believe it is still the country that respects individuals' rights the most. Not perfect by any means, just better than most others.

No, if they were not collecting logs by default, then it is clearly not false advertising.

polote 5y ago

So the default is when nobody ask for the logs? What the point of not collecting IP unless for the time it is useful?

Sebb767 5y ago
No history of when you logged in from where and, possibly, plausible deniability about about you being the only user of that account (through you'd probably need to prepare for this to be believable).
Aachen 5y ago
I mean it's either this or traffic analysis. If you use your clearnet IP address to do illegal things, it's nothing more than reasonable that you can get in trouble for it. This is also why I don't get protonmail in the first place. Unless you use pgp or equivalent, you'll always be subject to law enforcement. Just that protonmail cares more and caters more to activists and so might not give it out without checking that the asker is really legit and then give the minimal amount possible. But they'll always be able to turn over your emails and log IPs, it's not protonmail's fault the laws were voted into action like this.

lelandfe 5y ago

Technically correct but misleading. They tout that off-by-default statement on their homepage, underneath the header of "Anonymous Email," with the closing sentence of "Your privacy comes first." So why even market that? It provides no meaningful security.

IlliOnato 5y ago
Were _you_ mislead by this? Did you really expect a Switzerland-based company not to comply with law of the land? There is a difference between "available to police, not retroactively, and only with a valid warrant" and "available to any government agency constantly and in bulk, as well as to data-collecting commercial entities, Russian and Chinese hackers, and their dogs". Don't you agree?
- kylehotchkiss 5y ago
  Really solid explanation of what you’re paying for as a proton customer - and despite this unfortunate situation for the French advocate is why myself and others will continue their paid ProtonMail plans
- lelandfe 5y ago
  Fair point. I still don't think they've worded that well enough. I would probably not have read "By default" to have the context of "Unless asked to do so by authorities." They're not being as transparent as possible in their marketing, which is at odds with their allure of security.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Wouldn't they have to comply with a secret data collecting order? We are trusting they wouldn't comply or no one would make that request?
  - IlliOnato 5y ago
    As far as I know, Swiss law does not allow for "secret data collecting orders", unlike US after "Patriot Act". This is the benefit if being located in Switzerland, where banking is one of the main pillars of the economy and which historically has been much more supportive of personal privacy than most other countries. They eventually caved under US pressure on some things, so it's not such a "haven" as it used to be, but I believe it is still the country that respects individuals' rights the most. Not perfect by any means, just better than most others.