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So also a proton customer here. "By default we do not keep any IP logs" and this case does not seem like the default? Seems like they were required to by law to

by tephra 5y ago

So also a proton customer here. "By default we do not keep any IP logs" and this case does not seem like the default? Seems like they were required to by law to log and turn over this specific IP? (Of course I haven't seen the actual case but I would assume that meant a warrant.)

polote 5y ago
We do not kill people except the people we kill I see that you want to protect Protonmail, but if they want to stop being misleading they can just remove the IP log sentence
- istingray 5y ago
  Put "By default we don't keep IP, but may be required to by local laws. We suggest you connect through Protonmail through Tor". I would much prefer this, as a Protonmail paying customer.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    Tor helps, but is not especially robust against state-level actors / APTs. An actor running a sufficient number of entry/exit nodes could perform at least some traffic analysis. Tor is an improvement. It's still a limited tool.
    - seg_lol 5y ago
      It would have absolutely prevented this person from getting identified. It looks like some kids doing a climate protest. I can't but help read your post in comic book guys voice.
      - dredmorbius 5y ago
        In comic-book voice, then: what would an intelligence agency or police force's response to a suspect known to be using Tor be? Traffic analysis, at a cost, could establish that the suspect is using Tor. TorMetrics shows slightly more than 1,250 currently-running Tor exit nodes. I'll presume this is typical, history shows it's pretty consisten over the past 3 months. https://metrics.torproject.org/relayflags.html?start=2021-06-08&end=2021-09-06&flag=Exit https://metrics.torproject.org/relayflags.html?start=2021-06... I'm going to presume that a court could conceivably issue an order to log all Tor-based traffic. A state actor / APT might then be able to correlate a known IP and traffic at a given point in time with other data to identify a source IP. This might be combined with other measures to encourage circuit-jumping until the suspect is on a specific known or monitored Tor circuit. Yes, costs increase. I don't see this as technically infeasible, however. Might not be rolled out just for a house-squatter, however.
        seg_lol 5y ago
        Yeah, what you outline means Tor is Swiss cheese (ha, ha, long game pun), when it comes to traffic analysis. Are all the IPs for Paris to Tor being logged at the ISP level? You bet! Frankly, I don't think anyone is safe from the tip of a nation state, even small ones. But I do think we should protect everyone else and Tor would have done that. Because this was clearly civil disobedience and that is what we really should be protecting. https://www.cactusvpn.com/vpn/is-tor-safe/ https://www.cactusvpn.com/vpn/is-tor-safe/
        dredmorbius 5y ago
        Agreed on goals. Tor undoubtedly helps, and even where it fails, the raised costs are themselves a win for the pro-privacy crowd. Just ... don't think it's a majykal bullet. It's not. Tradecraft matters, vulnerabilities exist. Examine and review your threat models.
    - rank0 5y ago
      No it’s not bulletproof but there isn’t really any other network with the same availability which would protect against a targeted and sustained analysis. Even if a nation state was targeting you, it would still take months for a timing/bandwidth attack to identify a user. Even then it would only provide your adversary a probability of certainty and requires consistent traffic from the victim through a compromised exit node. No system is 100% perfect but tor will make most attacks prohibitively expensive.
      - dredmorbius 5y ago
        Probabilities factored in with other data can be exceedingly useful. Remember: all you need is 33 bits.
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      In discussion with Christine Webber on Mastodon: Onion services rather than simply using Tor as a transit service offers far more protection. Here, data enter the Tor system, but don't leave it as the onion service itself has a Tor address. Yes, traffic analysis and timing correlations may still be used to draw inferences, but again, costs are raised, and that's the critical factor.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  It's not misleading in that many services do keep records by default. If people don't understand what default means, they should grow their understanding, not be outraged that their uninformed opinion was wrong.
  - istingray 5y ago
    Default means "we do whatever the fuck we want, any assumptions are your fault"
    - tephra 5y ago
      I'm pretty sure it means that both the user and the company is bound by the terms of service and privacy policy that clearly spells out that they comply with legal warrants (from switz authorities) and provide the limited data that they are asked for if they have it (IPs being one such thing).
- tephra 5y ago
  I mean they are misleading in so far you want them to... I'm a privacy activist and certainly think that a company should be able to not keep logs. If the law in the country they are in (or area, see for example the data retention directive in the EU) we should of course (and I am) work to change those laws. It should come as no surprise to anyone who is privacy minded and actively seek out privacy focused services that are located within the EU or Switzerland that your IP (or other information) can be requested with a warrant and that a company is required to hand that over.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    As a privacy activist, what's productive about arguing that protonmail shouldn't need to make a greater effort to pound into their customers' heads exactly what you just explained? I get that you think people should already know this, but do you feel they should be punished for not already knowing this, and not reminded by a company that markets itself on protecting its users? Protonmail was forced to get an IP address, but they're not forced to keep the fact that they respond to warrants a big secret. Not everybody who is an activist is a big techie, or even computer-literate.
    - tephra 5y ago
      They clearly spell out in their privacy policy that they respond to warrants.... > We will only disclose the limited user data we possess if we are instructed to do so by a fully binding request coming from the competent Swiss authorities (legal obligation). While we may comply with electronically delivered notices (see exceptions below), the disclosed data can only be used in court after we have received an original copy of the court order by registered post or in person, and provide a formal response. It would also be nice if they were allowed to notify the customer but I'm not familiar enough with Swiss laws to know if they can.
istingray 5y ago
If this doesn't matter, what's important for you about being a Protonmail customer? (also a paying Protonmail customer)
- neltnerb 5y ago
  That your emails are supposedly stored encrypted, that if other services support it end-to-end email encryption supposedly can be enabled easily, and that supposedly you cannot be served targeted ads because they cannot read the contents of your email (not that they have ads anyway). Of course Protonmail is accessible via Tor. Not that you should need to do that to remain private.
  - vntok 5y ago
    > That your emails are supposedly stored encrypted, that if other services support it end-to-end email encryption supposedly can be enabled easily, and that supposedly you cannot be served targeted ads because they cannot read the contents of your email (not that they have ads anyway). Gmail does all of this for free though, right?
    - rileyphone 5y ago
      The last point very much not so - having my email provided as a free product by the world's largest ad company isn't a relationship I want to pursue.
      - vntok 5y ago
        Is the last point "that supposedly you cannot be served targeted ads because they cannot read the contents of your email"? Gmail Pro (paid G Suite) has never done that, and Gmail Perso (Free) hasn't done that since 2017.
        dbsmith83 5y ago
        Maybe they don't serve targeted ads, but they still read your gmail
jonas21 5y ago
As a user, I'd take that to mean that they wouldn't keep any IP logs unless I turned logging on. I wouldn't expect that they would enable logging on their own. Interestingly, ProtonMail's privacy policy lists a number of cases in which they may log your IP address permanently (including if you breach their Terms and Conditions). But a request from law enforcement is not one them.
- AmericanChopper 5y ago
  I understand it to mean they can enable IP logging for a mailbox in response to a court order.
- chrisshroba 5y ago
  Use of the service for any “unlawful or prohibited activities” violates the TOS, so if law enforcement has evidence of that (which they may), then PM has a clear right to log IP.
  - adsche 5y ago
    Is that so? I thought, if one violates the TOS, the other side may terminate the service. I did not know they then had the automatic right to then log data suitable for tracking and identification.
- woko 5y ago
  A user with the intent to engage in unlawful activities should read the terms of services in full. If that user only reads the homepage of the service, without understanding the implication of each word, and does not bother to review the terms in details, that is on him. Moreover, I would like to point out that ProtonMail is about encryption of email *content*. It is foolish to expect more from them. They won't protect your identity: law enforcement can know who you are and who you communicate with, but they cannot know the content of your emails (if you recipient uses encryption services as well).

by tephra 5y ago

polote 5y ago

We do not kill people except the people we kill I see that you want to protect Protonmail, but if they want to stop being misleading they can just remove the IP log sentence

istingray 5y ago
Put "By default we don't keep IP, but may be required to by local laws. We suggest you connect through Protonmail through Tor". I would much prefer this, as a Protonmail paying customer.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Tor helps, but is not especially robust against state-level actors / APTs. An actor running a sufficient number of entry/exit nodes could perform at least some traffic analysis. Tor is an improvement. It's still a limited tool.
  - seg_lol 5y ago
    It would have absolutely prevented this person from getting identified. It looks like some kids doing a climate protest. I can't but help read your post in comic book guys voice.
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      In comic-book voice, then: what would an intelligence agency or police force's response to a suspect known to be using Tor be? Traffic analysis, at a cost, could establish that the suspect is using Tor. TorMetrics shows slightly more than 1,250 currently-running Tor exit nodes. I'll presume this is typical, history shows it's pretty consisten over the past 3 months. https://metrics.torproject.org/relayflags.html?start=2021-06-08&end=2021-09-06&flag=Exit https://metrics.torproject.org/relayflags.html?start=2021-06... I'm going to presume that a court could conceivably issue an order to log all Tor-based traffic. A state actor / APT might then be able to correlate a known IP and traffic at a given point in time with other data to identify a source IP. This might be combined with other measures to encourage circuit-jumping until the suspect is on a specific known or monitored Tor circuit. Yes, costs increase. I don't see this as technically infeasible, however. Might not be rolled out just for a house-squatter, however.
      - seg_lol 5y ago
        Yeah, what you outline means Tor is Swiss cheese (ha, ha, long game pun), when it comes to traffic analysis. Are all the IPs for Paris to Tor being logged at the ISP level? You bet! Frankly, I don't think anyone is safe from the tip of a nation state, even small ones. But I do think we should protect everyone else and Tor would have done that. Because this was clearly civil disobedience and that is what we really should be protecting. https://www.cactusvpn.com/vpn/is-tor-safe/ https://www.cactusvpn.com/vpn/is-tor-safe/
        dredmorbius 5y ago
        Agreed on goals. Tor undoubtedly helps, and even where it fails, the raised costs are themselves a win for the pro-privacy crowd. Just ... don't think it's a majykal bullet. It's not. Tradecraft matters, vulnerabilities exist. Examine and review your threat models.
  - rank0 5y ago
    No it’s not bulletproof but there isn’t really any other network with the same availability which would protect against a targeted and sustained analysis. Even if a nation state was targeting you, it would still take months for a timing/bandwidth attack to identify a user. Even then it would only provide your adversary a probability of certainty and requires consistent traffic from the victim through a compromised exit node. No system is 100% perfect but tor will make most attacks prohibitively expensive.
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      Probabilities factored in with other data can be exceedingly useful. Remember: all you need is 33 bits.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    In discussion with Christine Webber on Mastodon: Onion services rather than simply using Tor as a transit service offers far more protection. Here, data enter the Tor system, but don't leave it as the onion service itself has a Tor address. Yes, traffic analysis and timing correlations may still be used to draw inferences, but again, costs are raised, and that's the critical factor.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
It's not misleading in that many services do keep records by default. If people don't understand what default means, they should grow their understanding, not be outraged that their uninformed opinion was wrong.
- istingray 5y ago
  Default means "we do whatever the fuck we want, any assumptions are your fault"
  - tephra 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure it means that both the user and the company is bound by the terms of service and privacy policy that clearly spells out that they comply with legal warrants (from switz authorities) and provide the limited data that they are asked for if they have it (IPs being one such thing).
tephra 5y ago
I mean they are misleading in so far you want them to... I'm a privacy activist and certainly think that a company should be able to not keep logs. If the law in the country they are in (or area, see for example the data retention directive in the EU) we should of course (and I am) work to change those laws. It should come as no surprise to anyone who is privacy minded and actively seek out privacy focused services that are located within the EU or Switzerland that your IP (or other information) can be requested with a warrant and that a company is required to hand that over.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  As a privacy activist, what's productive about arguing that protonmail shouldn't need to make a greater effort to pound into their customers' heads exactly what you just explained? I get that you think people should already know this, but do you feel they should be punished for not already knowing this, and not reminded by a company that markets itself on protecting its users? Protonmail was forced to get an IP address, but they're not forced to keep the fact that they respond to warrants a big secret. Not everybody who is an activist is a big techie, or even computer-literate.
  - tephra 5y ago
    They clearly spell out in their privacy policy that they respond to warrants.... > We will only disclose the limited user data we possess if we are instructed to do so by a fully binding request coming from the competent Swiss authorities (legal obligation). While we may comply with electronically delivered notices (see exceptions below), the disclosed data can only be used in court after we have received an original copy of the court order by registered post or in person, and provide a formal response. It would also be nice if they were allowed to notify the customer but I'm not familiar enough with Swiss laws to know if they can.

istingray 5y ago

If this doesn't matter, what's important for you about being a Protonmail customer? (also a paying Protonmail customer)

neltnerb 5y ago
That your emails are supposedly stored encrypted, that if other services support it end-to-end email encryption supposedly can be enabled easily, and that supposedly you cannot be served targeted ads because they cannot read the contents of your email (not that they have ads anyway). Of course Protonmail is accessible via Tor. Not that you should need to do that to remain private.
- vntok 5y ago
  > That your emails are supposedly stored encrypted, that if other services support it end-to-end email encryption supposedly can be enabled easily, and that supposedly you cannot be served targeted ads because they cannot read the contents of your email (not that they have ads anyway). Gmail does all of this for free though, right?
  - rileyphone 5y ago
    The last point very much not so - having my email provided as a free product by the world's largest ad company isn't a relationship I want to pursue.
    - vntok 5y ago
      Is the last point "that supposedly you cannot be served targeted ads because they cannot read the contents of your email"? Gmail Pro (paid G Suite) has never done that, and Gmail Perso (Free) hasn't done that since 2017.
      - dbsmith83 5y ago
        Maybe they don't serve targeted ads, but they still read your gmail

jonas21 5y ago

As a user, I'd take that to mean that they wouldn't keep any IP logs unless I turned logging on. I wouldn't expect that they would enable logging on their own. Interestingly, ProtonMail's privacy policy lists a number of cases in which they may log your IP address permanently (including if you breach their Terms and Conditions). But a request from law enforcement is not one them.

AmericanChopper 5y ago
I understand it to mean they can enable IP logging for a mailbox in response to a court order.
chrisshroba 5y ago
Use of the service for any “unlawful or prohibited activities” violates the TOS, so if law enforcement has evidence of that (which they may), then PM has a clear right to log IP.
- adsche 5y ago
  Is that so? I thought, if one violates the TOS, the other side may terminate the service. I did not know they then had the automatic right to then log data suitable for tracking and identification.
woko 5y ago
A user with the intent to engage in unlawful activities should read the terms of services in full. If that user only reads the homepage of the service, without understanding the implication of each word, and does not bother to review the terms in details, that is on him. Moreover, I would like to point out that ProtonMail is about encryption of email *content*. It is foolish to expect more from them. They won't protect your identity: law enforcement can know who you are and who you communicate with, but they cannot know the content of your emails (if you recipient uses encryption services as well).