5 ms·

I guess there isn’t much Protonmail can do if the prosecutor shows up with an ~Interpol~ Europol warrant. I wonder what this “activist” did to earn himself Eur

by mikl 5y ago

I guess there isn’t much Protonmail can do if the prosecutor shows up with an ~Interpol~ Europol warrant. I wonder what this “activist” did to earn himself Europol attention. At least before the world went insane, that would only happen for serious crimes.

ficklepickle 5y ago
The terrible crime of squatting, according to some comments in that thread
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  Has your home in France been squatted? No? Or maybe you do not own a house in France? If so, on which basis do you ironically call squatting a "terrible crime"? Squatters in your house in France means that you you have zero rights on this place until a lengthy process gives it back to you, ruined. You are then expected to be grateful and can forget about any reimbursement from the poor people who stole your property.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - sodality2 5y ago
    ficklepickle is poking fun at the fact that the crime is minor, relative to the weight behind the warrant. It would be like if the FBI put you on their website and the news stations aired your photo, for driving without a license. Sure, it's a crime, but it's a relatively minor one. I suppose if you were the victim you'd have a different point of view.
  - bromuro 5y ago
    Squatting is about occupying uninhabited places. It should be welcomed or at least tolerated.
    - estaseuropano 5y ago
      I Don't know about France but in some places its near impossible to evict squatters, meaning if your property stands empty a month (e.g. waiting for new tenant or repairs) and some squatters move in you are basically screwed for years to come - they won't pay rent, you'll lose thousands and much lifetime evicting them, and for a few years they'll run down your property as they have no legal or other interest in maintaining it, so you are out huge amounts of money. This can happen to the slumlord (who will then send someone to beat up the squatters), to the big capitalist (who will go through the courts and win) and to smalltime owners where that is maybe their family home or future retirement apartment (who will suffer the most). Homelessness/lack of housing is a problem, but squatting is in most cases not the right solution.
      - russianbandit 5y ago
        But if someone just moves into your property why can’t police just kick them out? That’s an illegal action. If someone came into your house and started stealing your things and you call the cops on them you don’t go to court to prove those things are really yours.
        itsmeacupoftea 5y ago
        Because in many locations around the world, it's not as simple as a criminal offence, it's a civil dispute, as once you have commenced "squatting", you are now an occupant, rather than a clear trespasser. Many squatters find squatting manuals online detailing the local laws and how best to approach it to maximum time available in the property.
        BrandoElFollito 5y ago
        In France once someone entered your house (and stayed a generally agreed upon 48 hours) you have no right to evict them. Then starts a possibly very long process to have them evicted/ If they have a child you are basically screwed and won't be able to get your property back. Or you will wait months/years and get a ruin back.
  - russianbandit 5y ago
    Still, doesn’t seem like the best use of Europol catching squatters.
  - hyperman1 5y ago
    Someone had squatters after working 3 months outside the country. He basically had zero rights to throw them out, and the law considered him as a sort of landlord for non-paying tenants, with all relevant responsibilities. As his and their legal address where now identical, he was partially responsible/paying for their healthcare. But the law allowed him, as a good landlord, to work on the outside of the house, for the good of his tenants. So he did. He installed security cameras, and reported every minor infraction of the squatters to the police. The police loved it, and duly did everything. Oh look, a cm of your wheel is parked outside the allowed boundary. That's a ticket. Of course he duly tested the very loud alarm every evening, to make sure it works. He did a paint job, first removing the old paint with the noisiest dustiest old tools he could find, then painting it in an old ugly pink he found on a flea market somewhere. Then decided the quality wasn't good and removed the paint again. One day, the squatters had enough and actually went to a court to demand he let their poor baby sleep. Judge just laughed, and told them all work happened before 22:00 so he was in his right. Squatters ran away after a few months, which supposedly is a happy outcome, at least compared to what the law could do for him.
    - jmeister 5y ago
      Truth is stranger than fiction. I cannot believe this happening in the first world.
- smsm42 5y ago
  What's weird is why they'd need all these hoops to jump through if it's squatting? It's pretty easy to find the squatter - they usually are at the same place they're squatting, and the real owners of the place would be eager for the police to come and find them there. Once you found them, you could seize their devices and get all the IP information (at least) from them and from the carriers. it's weird why would you need to look for a squatter in such a convoluted way?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
keewee7 5y ago
The Climate Action youth movement is sometimes explicitly anti-capitalist in a very "direct action" way. Vandalising banks is stupid and also an efficient way to make powerful people dislike you.
- freshhawk 5y ago
  Probably the movement to squat in empty buildings and organize more of the same in response to pandemic evictions, that's been getting the kind of attention its very dangerous for left wing groups to get.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  They do seem to be a far left group using the "climate" umbrella. This squatting 'action' has nothing to do with the environment, it's class struggle. Unfortunately this sort of extremist group is harmful to people and organisations genuinely trying to do something for the environment.
  - ruined 5y ago
    unfortunately, climate is a class issue https://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxfam.org/files/file_attachments/mb-extreme-carbon-inequality-021215-en.pdf https://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxfam.org/files/file_attachm... https://ourworldindata.org/co2-by-income-region#emissions-by-country-s-income https://ourworldindata.org/co2-by-income-region#emissions-by...
nicce 5y ago
If you don’t collect data, you can’t give it even if you wanted?
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  I suspect that you can order to collect it going forward.
  - dheera 5y ago
    If they order to collect someone's data, can't ProtonMail just say "we've been ordered to collect data for a user" on the front page?
    - pas 5y ago
      It depends on jurisdiction. For example the UK has the infamous gag orders that are even harder to fight in court (successfully) than their US counterparts. Sure, ProtonMail and its current operators could opt to stop operating in such jurisdictions, but usually it's too late for that when you get the [secret] court order, because if you refuse the operators personally are quickly found in contempt of court (or whatever other bad legal circumstance), and eventually that can lead to similar InterPol/EuroPol (other MLAT) warrants.
      - dheera 5y ago
        Aren't they in Switzerland though? A UK gag order can only have teeth within the UK, right?
        pas 5y ago
        But if you ever want to do business in the UK or travel to/through the UK, or in/to/through any country that might have MLAT with the UK ... then you're highly incentivized to take them at least a bit seriously to avoid really (sorry, royally!) pissing them off.
      - 5y ago
folmar 5y ago
Interpol warrants are widely used for fighting political opponents [https://stockholmcf.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Abuse-Of-The-Interpol-System-By-Turkey_September-20-2017.pdf https://stockholmcf.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Abuse-Of-...] [http://www.opinione.it/societa/2017/08/29/claudia-candelmo-e-michele-lepore_interpol-regimiautoritari/ http://www.opinione.it/societa/2017/08/29/claudia-candelmo-e...]
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
  I found this informative article [1], and another [2] on the misuse of the so-called Interpol Red Notice, which I assume is like a BOLO, but not truely a warrant. [1] https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-an-interpol-red-notice-and-how-does-it-work-110688 https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-an-interpol-re... [2] https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/weaponizing-interpol/ https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/weaponizing-inte...
- 650487647 5y ago
  For your information, Stockholm center for freedom is biased towards Turkey[0]. I don't defend Turkey here(surely, its track record is not good). [0] - https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nordic-monitor/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nordic-monitor/

by mikl 5y ago

ficklepickle 5y ago

The terrible crime of squatting, according to some comments in that thread

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
Has your home in France been squatted? No? Or maybe you do not own a house in France? If so, on which basis do you ironically call squatting a "terrible crime"? Squatters in your house in France means that you you have zero rights on this place until a lengthy process gives it back to you, ruined. You are then expected to be grateful and can forget about any reimbursement from the poor people who stole your property.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sodality2 5y ago
  ficklepickle is poking fun at the fact that the crime is minor, relative to the weight behind the warrant. It would be like if the FBI put you on their website and the news stations aired your photo, for driving without a license. Sure, it's a crime, but it's a relatively minor one. I suppose if you were the victim you'd have a different point of view.
- bromuro 5y ago
  Squatting is about occupying uninhabited places. It should be welcomed or at least tolerated.
  - estaseuropano 5y ago
    I Don't know about France but in some places its near impossible to evict squatters, meaning if your property stands empty a month (e.g. waiting for new tenant or repairs) and some squatters move in you are basically screwed for years to come - they won't pay rent, you'll lose thousands and much lifetime evicting them, and for a few years they'll run down your property as they have no legal or other interest in maintaining it, so you are out huge amounts of money. This can happen to the slumlord (who will then send someone to beat up the squatters), to the big capitalist (who will go through the courts and win) and to smalltime owners where that is maybe their family home or future retirement apartment (who will suffer the most). Homelessness/lack of housing is a problem, but squatting is in most cases not the right solution.
    - russianbandit 5y ago
      But if someone just moves into your property why can’t police just kick them out? That’s an illegal action. If someone came into your house and started stealing your things and you call the cops on them you don’t go to court to prove those things are really yours.
      - itsmeacupoftea 5y ago
        Because in many locations around the world, it's not as simple as a criminal offence, it's a civil dispute, as once you have commenced "squatting", you are now an occupant, rather than a clear trespasser. Many squatters find squatting manuals online detailing the local laws and how best to approach it to maximum time available in the property.
      - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
        In France once someone entered your house (and stayed a generally agreed upon 48 hours) you have no right to evict them. Then starts a possibly very long process to have them evicted/ If they have a child you are basically screwed and won't be able to get your property back. Or you will wait months/years and get a ruin back.
- russianbandit 5y ago
  Still, doesn’t seem like the best use of Europol catching squatters.
- hyperman1 5y ago
  Someone had squatters after working 3 months outside the country. He basically had zero rights to throw them out, and the law considered him as a sort of landlord for non-paying tenants, with all relevant responsibilities. As his and their legal address where now identical, he was partially responsible/paying for their healthcare. But the law allowed him, as a good landlord, to work on the outside of the house, for the good of his tenants. So he did. He installed security cameras, and reported every minor infraction of the squatters to the police. The police loved it, and duly did everything. Oh look, a cm of your wheel is parked outside the allowed boundary. That's a ticket. Of course he duly tested the very loud alarm every evening, to make sure it works. He did a paint job, first removing the old paint with the noisiest dustiest old tools he could find, then painting it in an old ugly pink he found on a flea market somewhere. Then decided the quality wasn't good and removed the paint again. One day, the squatters had enough and actually went to a court to demand he let their poor baby sleep. Judge just laughed, and told them all work happened before 22:00 so he was in his right. Squatters ran away after a few months, which supposedly is a happy outcome, at least compared to what the law could do for him.
  - jmeister 5y ago
    Truth is stranger than fiction. I cannot believe this happening in the first world.
smsm42 5y ago
What's weird is why they'd need all these hoops to jump through if it's squatting? It's pretty easy to find the squatter - they usually are at the same place they're squatting, and the real owners of the place would be eager for the police to come and find them there. Once you found them, you could seize their devices and get all the IP information (at least) from them and from the carriers. it's weird why would you need to look for a squatter in such a convoluted way?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

keewee7 5y ago

The Climate Action youth movement is sometimes explicitly anti-capitalist in a very "direct action" way. Vandalising banks is stupid and also an efficient way to make powerful people dislike you.

freshhawk 5y ago
Probably the movement to squat in empty buildings and organize more of the same in response to pandemic evictions, that's been getting the kind of attention its very dangerous for left wing groups to get.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mytailorisrich 5y ago
They do seem to be a far left group using the "climate" umbrella. This squatting 'action' has nothing to do with the environment, it's class struggle. Unfortunately this sort of extremist group is harmful to people and organisations genuinely trying to do something for the environment.
- ruined 5y ago
  unfortunately, climate is a class issue https://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxfam.org/files/file_attachments/mb-extreme-carbon-inequality-021215-en.pdf https://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxfam.org/files/file_attachm... https://ourworldindata.org/co2-by-income-region#emissions-by-country-s-income https://ourworldindata.org/co2-by-income-region#emissions-by...

nicce 5y ago

If you don’t collect data, you can’t give it even if you wanted?

MattGaiser 5y ago
I suspect that you can order to collect it going forward.
- dheera 5y ago
  If they order to collect someone's data, can't ProtonMail just say "we've been ordered to collect data for a user" on the front page?
  - pas 5y ago
    It depends on jurisdiction. For example the UK has the infamous gag orders that are even harder to fight in court (successfully) than their US counterparts. Sure, ProtonMail and its current operators could opt to stop operating in such jurisdictions, but usually it's too late for that when you get the [secret] court order, because if you refuse the operators personally are quickly found in contempt of court (or whatever other bad legal circumstance), and eventually that can lead to similar InterPol/EuroPol (other MLAT) warrants.
    - dheera 5y ago
      Aren't they in Switzerland though? A UK gag order can only have teeth within the UK, right?
      - pas 5y ago
        But if you ever want to do business in the UK or travel to/through the UK, or in/to/through any country that might have MLAT with the UK ... then you're highly incentivized to take them at least a bit seriously to avoid really (sorry, royally!) pissing them off.
    - 5y ago

folmar 5y ago

Interpol warrants are widely used for fighting political opponents [https://stockholmcf.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Abuse-Of-The-Interpol-System-By-Turkey_September-20-2017.pdf https://stockholmcf.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Abuse-Of-...] [http://www.opinione.it/societa/2017/08/29/claudia-candelmo-e-michele-lepore_interpol-regimiautoritari/ http://www.opinione.it/societa/2017/08/29/claudia-candelmo-e...]

OrvalWintermute 5y ago
I found this informative article [1], and another [2] on the misuse of the so-called Interpol Red Notice, which I assume is like a BOLO, but not truely a warrant. [1] https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-an-interpol-red-notice-and-how-does-it-work-110688 https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-an-interpol-re... [2] https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/weaponizing-interpol/ https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/weaponizing-inte...
650487647 5y ago
For your information, Stockholm center for freedom is biased towards Turkey[0]. I don't defend Turkey here(surely, its track record is not good). [0] - https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nordic-monitor/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nordic-monitor/