3 ms·

I don‘t know the proper solution, but building 27 ‚excellent clusters‘ for battery technology wouldn‘t make any sense. If it was national programmes then it wou

by daanlo 5y ago

I don‘t know the proper solution, but building 27 ‚excellent clusters‘ for battery technology wouldn‘t make any sense. If it was national programmes then it would probably also be nationally funded and bigger economies (like Germany/Italy) would also have bigger budgets.

jollybean 5y ago
The bigger economies have bigger budgets is just fine, and the investments would be proportional to size their respective automotive sectors. Sweden for example, has an outsized auto industry, but they can afford the investment. If the EU wants to do this, they should be building the factory in Spain. Failing that, France, Germany, Italy and possibly Sweden could each build their own, that would work an be 'fair'. The worst option would be to use EU money to centralize it in Germany, with a large cohort of foreign workers. It exemplifies the systematic centralization of wealth and power in Germany which is literally the opposite of what the EU is supposed to be doing. Since France has been ailing, and the UK is out, the very original objective of the project is now turned upside down.
- panick21 5y ago
  > The worst option would be to use EU money to centralize it in Germany That not happening. > with a large cohort of foreign workers that is equally nonsense. You seem to be totally misunderstanding what going on here. Go and actually read about the strategy that is being followed.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    It's actually sad for HN that none of you have been able to cobble together a coherent argument. The only actual point made (ad nauseum) was that 'Germany contributes a surplus to the EU' - which is common knowledge. You've lost the gambit if you can't make a point and only resort to name calling, you're only making yourself look bad. The very fact that a mutlibillion dollar EU subsidy is going to Germany, ahead of less developed economies is a hint of evidence of consolidation in Germany. The battery subsidy makes up more than 10% of the 'transfer imbalance' paid out to Germany to the EU, so it's fairly significant. But the greater theme of centralization of power in Germany is obviously happening, it's not even controversial. "The country’s outsized economic clout has made Berlin Europe’s political fulcrum, " [1] Given a weak France and absent UK, Chanceller Merkel has the 'final word' on all important issues. She appointed a unelected and unknown member of her own political party to the President of the EU Commission as a pretty good example of that. GDP per capita in Germany, France, Italy and Spain since 1990 [2] quite clearly demonstrates how after the introduction of the Euro, beyond a small bump of financial euphoria, that the Euro has considerably favoured Germany over those countries. Absent any control over monetary policy, Spaniards etc. are left in the lurch and there's no reason to believe they will ever get out. They are held in a financial straight jacket. The few billion pounds they receive in EU subsidies are worthless next to to the existential harm to their economy. They are being turned into a Poland, with much of their talent leaving -> for Germany. "Spaniards move to Germany in record numbers last year" [3] The EU is beginning to look like what would happen if all of the Americas i.e. USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Colombia formed a 'Federal Superstate' - there would be massive consolidation of power in the US via acquisition, talent migration etc.. "Germany is Doomed to Lead Europe [4] The mechanisms of the trend are still debatable, but that it's happening is obvious. [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/eurozone-problem-country-germany-coronavirus/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eurozone-problem-country-ger... [2] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?end=2020&locations=DE-FR-IT-ES&start=1990&view=chart https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?end=2... [3] "https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/07/inenglish/1367940037_345858.html https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/07/inenglish/13679... [4] https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/06/25/germany-is-doomed-to-lead-europe https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/06/25/germany-is-doome...
    - panick21 5y ago
      The EU is not the perfect example of European Unity, congratulations for figuring that out. Most European institutions are designed by dolling out as much as they get in. That is the inherent way most of these programs work. Had Britain been part of it, a lot of those factories would be in Britain. > considerably favoured Germany over those countries Because Germany has better policy and better discipline. The Euro was a project essentially pushed on the Germans, if the French were to stupid to see this outcome then its their own fault. In fact, French economics have been obsessed with fixed exchange rate regimens for 200 years no matter how many times its proven to be idiotic. Btw, France and Spain are free to leave the EU and the Eurozone. Its was their choice to join and its their choice to leave. I have not argued against the claim that the EU or the Eurozone is not beneficial to German. Rather that in this program support is given to a large number of companies all over Europe and is not inherently centralized on Germany beyond what is appropriate with how it is financed. You have not provided any defense of evidence that everybody of Tesla will be foreign worker either.

by daanlo 5y ago

jollybean 5y ago

The bigger economies have bigger budgets is just fine, and the investments would be proportional to size their respective automotive sectors. Sweden for example, has an outsized auto industry, but they can afford the investment. If the EU wants to do this, they should be building the factory in Spain. Failing that, France, Germany, Italy and possibly Sweden could each build their own, that would work an be 'fair'. The worst option would be to use EU money to centralize it in Germany, with a large cohort of foreign workers. It exemplifies the systematic centralization of wealth and power in Germany which is literally the opposite of what the EU is supposed to be doing. Since France has been ailing, and the UK is out, the very original objective of the project is now turned upside down.

panick21 5y ago
> The worst option would be to use EU money to centralize it in Germany That not happening. > with a large cohort of foreign workers that is equally nonsense. You seem to be totally misunderstanding what going on here. Go and actually read about the strategy that is being followed.
- jollybean 5y ago
  It's actually sad for HN that none of you have been able to cobble together a coherent argument. The only actual point made (ad nauseum) was that 'Germany contributes a surplus to the EU' - which is common knowledge. You've lost the gambit if you can't make a point and only resort to name calling, you're only making yourself look bad. The very fact that a mutlibillion dollar EU subsidy is going to Germany, ahead of less developed economies is a hint of evidence of consolidation in Germany. The battery subsidy makes up more than 10% of the 'transfer imbalance' paid out to Germany to the EU, so it's fairly significant. But the greater theme of centralization of power in Germany is obviously happening, it's not even controversial. "The country’s outsized economic clout has made Berlin Europe’s political fulcrum, " [1] Given a weak France and absent UK, Chanceller Merkel has the 'final word' on all important issues. She appointed a unelected and unknown member of her own political party to the President of the EU Commission as a pretty good example of that. GDP per capita in Germany, France, Italy and Spain since 1990 [2] quite clearly demonstrates how after the introduction of the Euro, beyond a small bump of financial euphoria, that the Euro has considerably favoured Germany over those countries. Absent any control over monetary policy, Spaniards etc. are left in the lurch and there's no reason to believe they will ever get out. They are held in a financial straight jacket. The few billion pounds they receive in EU subsidies are worthless next to to the existential harm to their economy. They are being turned into a Poland, with much of their talent leaving -> for Germany. "Spaniards move to Germany in record numbers last year" [3] The EU is beginning to look like what would happen if all of the Americas i.e. USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Colombia formed a 'Federal Superstate' - there would be massive consolidation of power in the US via acquisition, talent migration etc.. "Germany is Doomed to Lead Europe [4] The mechanisms of the trend are still debatable, but that it's happening is obvious. [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/eurozone-problem-country-germany-coronavirus/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eurozone-problem-country-ger... [2] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?end=2020&locations=DE-FR-IT-ES&start=1990&view=chart https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?end=2... [3] "https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/07/inenglish/1367940037_345858.html https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/07/inenglish/13679... [4] https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/06/25/germany-is-doomed-to-lead-europe https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/06/25/germany-is-doome...
  - panick21 5y ago
    The EU is not the perfect example of European Unity, congratulations for figuring that out. Most European institutions are designed by dolling out as much as they get in. That is the inherent way most of these programs work. Had Britain been part of it, a lot of those factories would be in Britain. > considerably favoured Germany over those countries Because Germany has better policy and better discipline. The Euro was a project essentially pushed on the Germans, if the French were to stupid to see this outcome then its their own fault. In fact, French economics have been obsessed with fixed exchange rate regimens for 200 years no matter how many times its proven to be idiotic. Btw, France and Spain are free to leave the EU and the Eurozone. Its was their choice to join and its their choice to leave. I have not argued against the claim that the EU or the Eurozone is not beneficial to German. Rather that in this program support is given to a large number of companies all over Europe and is not inherently centralized on Germany beyond what is appropriate with how it is financed. You have not provided any defense of evidence that everybody of Tesla will be foreign worker either.