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> Computers have mental activities too, simple ones That's begging the question as to whether awareness arises out of the physical world. You're assuming ment

> Computers have mental activities too, simple ones That's begging the question as to whether awareness arises out of the physical world. You're assuming mental activities arise out of computations occurring in the physical world, when whether or not this is the case is in fact the question.

Comevius 5y ago
The mental activities are the computations, it doesn't matter what you call it. It's the same predictive model of the environment thing, which is thermodynamics. Of course we think that humans are special, but a gerbil, a cauliflower plant, even a metal spring does this. Granted a cauliflower can do much more than a spring, but then a gerbil can do more than a cauliflower. https://nautil.us/issue/104/harmony/plants-feel-pain-and-might-even-see https://nautil.us/issue/104/harmony/plants-feel-pain-and-mig...
nextaccountic 5y ago
If and when we upload a mind to a computer and/or create true AI, this question will be settled for all practical purposes. Why? Because the person in the computer, being a faithful simulation of a human mind (or some AI analogue), will say they feel exactly the same mental things as real humans, down to the most minor detail. You then see they are just software, and say it's impossible to prove they feel the subjective experience they claim to feel. Then they say you're just a dude and it's impossible for you to prove you feel this subjective experience you claim to feel. There's no way out. If it's possible _at all_ to have self-aware software, they will have exactly the same claim to consciousness as yourself. Which is: I can't show my mental state to anyone and you need to take my word for granted.
- throwdecro 5y ago
  It's true that it's impossible for an outside observer to tell whether a claim to consciousness, by a faithful simulation of a human mind, is genuine. That may mean that the question cannot be settled. It doesn't actually settle the question though.
  - rixed 5y ago
    It does settle the question whether a human mind is any different than a software wrt consciousness. The only question that remains is are all things pretending to be conscious actually are?
    - throwdecro 5y ago
      How can it be settled when no one and nothing can show it's mental state to others?

Comevius 5y ago

The mental activities are the computations, it doesn't matter what you call it. It's the same predictive model of the environment thing, which is thermodynamics. Of course we think that humans are special, but a gerbil, a cauliflower plant, even a metal spring does this. Granted a cauliflower can do much more than a spring, but then a gerbil can do more than a cauliflower. https://nautil.us/issue/104/harmony/plants-feel-pain-and-might-even-see https://nautil.us/issue/104/harmony/plants-feel-pain-and-mig...

nextaccountic 5y ago

If and when we upload a mind to a computer and/or create true AI, this question will be settled for all practical purposes. Why? Because the person in the computer, being a faithful simulation of a human mind (or some AI analogue), will say they feel exactly the same mental things as real humans, down to the most minor detail. You then see they are just software, and say it's impossible to prove they feel the subjective experience they claim to feel. Then they say you're just a dude and it's impossible for you to prove you feel this subjective experience you claim to feel. There's no way out. If it's possible _at all_ to have self-aware software, they will have exactly the same claim to consciousness as yourself. Which is: I can't show my mental state to anyone and you need to take my word for granted.

throwdecro 5y ago
It's true that it's impossible for an outside observer to tell whether a claim to consciousness, by a faithful simulation of a human mind, is genuine. That may mean that the question cannot be settled. It doesn't actually settle the question though.
- rixed 5y ago
  It does settle the question whether a human mind is any different than a software wrt consciousness. The only question that remains is are all things pretending to be conscious actually are?
  - throwdecro 5y ago
    How can it be settled when no one and nothing can show it's mental state to others?