5 ms·

At 2000 jobs(maybe) that's 570,000 euros a job created.

by plouffy 5y ago

gtirloni 5y ago
Also need to take into account all the taxes it'll collect.
google234123 5y ago
You are right, let’s just stick with coal mines and plants since they have the most efficient euro/job/energy value.
Tenoke 5y ago
I guess they benefit more than just the jobs (which I am not sure are even all going to German citizens) but it does seem like poor value especially as they are hardly leaving after committing so much.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Forge36 5y ago
Over how many years?
jsight 5y ago
That doesn't necessarily seem like a terrible sum, if the jobs are sustainable and the 2k is a lower bound. OTOH, it seems likely the jobs would be created there without this payment, so why do it?
- londons_explore 5y ago
  Batteries are easy and cheap enough to ship - either as cells or completed packs. They'll build the plant wherever gives the most incentives.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- max-ibel 5y ago
  Doesn't it all depend a lot of details that are not published ? If the 2000 jobs are Fraunhofer/Max Planck Institute battery chemistry researchers and engineers, than this is great news and will help developing a solid industrial battery base in Germany. Well done! If the 2000 jobs are Gabelstaplerfahrer, and all the tech / research is done in the US, then yeah, the investment is mostly in the construction/services sector, which doesn't seem great. This is oversimplified, but my guess is that Tesla doesn't want to outsource the core tech/research, so we're going to see more Gabelstaplerfahrer and less Fraunhofer/MPI.
  - panick21 5y ago
    Go look at how their manufacturing line works. They don't to do stupid work. They need to control a highly complex chemical manufacturing plant and likely battery recycling plant. Researching is not the only work that requires more then manual labor. Go look at Nevada, after the Gigafactory there are now a number of battery companies located there.
avianlyric 5y ago
If it was a pure job creation program that would be pretty poor value for money, but based on the article there’s a slightly larger play here. Notability Germany wants to build technological independence, and I imagine part of that is becoming world leaders in battery manufacturing. Even if they don’t end up with Tesla IP, the knowledge that ends up in peoples heads and eventually spreads around the German economy will be incredibly valuable. Given the EU ban on ICE cars in the near future, and the size Germany’s car manufacturing industry, it makes perfect sense for the German government to spend potential very large sums of money to make sure the next generation of cars is built in Germany. Not just ensuring their automotive industry keeps going, but also make it harder for other economies to compete by ensuring the majority of the manufacturing expertise world wide lives in German brains.
askafriend 5y ago
Worth it. It’s also a strategic advantage to build battery manufacturing capacity domestically.
- epistasis 5y ago
  Agreed. I think that battery production, unlike solar panel production, will be highly incentivized today be local. Batteries are very heavy in kg/€ compared to other products. There are big advantages to keeping this somewhat local. Shipping batteries over seas or cross continent, after the raw materials have also been shopped long distances, will likely be economically inefficient.
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    I also wonder if batteries can be commoditised the same way solar panels have been. Battery chemistry and manufacturing processes seem to be much more complex than solar panels, additionally there seems to be significantly more trade offs to be made by car manufacturers, than solar panel installers.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      I think that they will eventually become components not unlike current solar panels and inverters. I wouldn't underestimate the complexity of solar panels, there's massive continuous innovation just as there is with batteries.
  - krisoft 5y ago
    I’m not following what you say about the weight. You know what is heavy and relatively cheap? Steel. Yet we ship it all around. A Tesla S battery is reported to weight 544kg and costs an estimated 15000 USD. That gives us 0.04 kg/USD. For steel one estimate gives us that 1000kg goes for 1100 USD. Which gives us 0.9 kg/USD. I thought maybe i’m missing your point so I did the same calculation for something light and expensive we are shipping around too. One can buy 0.49kg ipad for 440 USD. Which gives us 0.001 kg/USD. So batteries are somewhere between steel and ipads in terms of kg/$. Can you explain what makes both of those ends shipable while batteries won’t be?

At 2000 jobs(maybe) that's 570,000 euros a job created.

gtirloni 5y ago

Also need to take into account all the taxes it'll collect.

google234123 5y ago

You are right, let’s just stick with coal mines and plants since they have the most efficient euro/job/energy value.

Tenoke 5y ago

I guess they benefit more than just the jobs (which I am not sure are even all going to German citizens) but it does seem like poor value especially as they are hardly leaving after committing so much.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Forge36 5y ago

Over how many years?

jsight 5y ago

That doesn't necessarily seem like a terrible sum, if the jobs are sustainable and the 2k is a lower bound. OTOH, it seems likely the jobs would be created there without this payment, so why do it?

londons_explore 5y ago
Batteries are easy and cheap enough to ship - either as cells or completed packs. They'll build the plant wherever gives the most incentives.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
max-ibel 5y ago
Doesn't it all depend a lot of details that are not published ? If the 2000 jobs are Fraunhofer/Max Planck Institute battery chemistry researchers and engineers, than this is great news and will help developing a solid industrial battery base in Germany. Well done! If the 2000 jobs are Gabelstaplerfahrer, and all the tech / research is done in the US, then yeah, the investment is mostly in the construction/services sector, which doesn't seem great. This is oversimplified, but my guess is that Tesla doesn't want to outsource the core tech/research, so we're going to see more Gabelstaplerfahrer and less Fraunhofer/MPI.
- panick21 5y ago
  Go look at how their manufacturing line works. They don't to do stupid work. They need to control a highly complex chemical manufacturing plant and likely battery recycling plant. Researching is not the only work that requires more then manual labor. Go look at Nevada, after the Gigafactory there are now a number of battery companies located there.

avianlyric 5y ago

If it was a pure job creation program that would be pretty poor value for money, but based on the article there’s a slightly larger play here. Notability Germany wants to build technological independence, and I imagine part of that is becoming world leaders in battery manufacturing. Even if they don’t end up with Tesla IP, the knowledge that ends up in peoples heads and eventually spreads around the German economy will be incredibly valuable. Given the EU ban on ICE cars in the near future, and the size Germany’s car manufacturing industry, it makes perfect sense for the German government to spend potential very large sums of money to make sure the next generation of cars is built in Germany. Not just ensuring their automotive industry keeps going, but also make it harder for other economies to compete by ensuring the majority of the manufacturing expertise world wide lives in German brains.

askafriend 5y ago

Worth it. It’s also a strategic advantage to build battery manufacturing capacity domestically.

epistasis 5y ago
Agreed. I think that battery production, unlike solar panel production, will be highly incentivized today be local. Batteries are very heavy in kg/€ compared to other products. There are big advantages to keeping this somewhat local. Shipping batteries over seas or cross continent, after the raw materials have also been shopped long distances, will likely be economically inefficient.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  I also wonder if batteries can be commoditised the same way solar panels have been. Battery chemistry and manufacturing processes seem to be much more complex than solar panels, additionally there seems to be significantly more trade offs to be made by car manufacturers, than solar panel installers.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    I think that they will eventually become components not unlike current solar panels and inverters. I wouldn't underestimate the complexity of solar panels, there's massive continuous innovation just as there is with batteries.
- krisoft 5y ago
  I’m not following what you say about the weight. You know what is heavy and relatively cheap? Steel. Yet we ship it all around. A Tesla S battery is reported to weight 544kg and costs an estimated 15000 USD. That gives us 0.04 kg/USD. For steel one estimate gives us that 1000kg goes for 1100 USD. Which gives us 0.9 kg/USD. I thought maybe i’m missing your point so I did the same calculation for something light and expensive we are shipping around too. One can buy 0.49kg ipad for 440 USD. Which gives us 0.001 kg/USD. So batteries are somewhere between steel and ipads in terms of kg/$. Can you explain what makes both of those ends shipable while batteries won’t be?