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Democracy can fight back

listless 5y ago
I just want to be honest for a moment with someone: I don’t think democracy works anymore. The model is predicated on representatives speaking for the people and regulating a few large entities. It is simply not setup to handle when everyone speaks and everyone is an entity. Perhaps we need a new take on democracy, but what I see is it falling apart in front of our eyes and all we can do is watch.
- specialist 5y ago
  Ya. I've always thought the answer was more deliberative democracy. Hard to imagine how that can happen with modern media funded by advertising, the outrage engine fueled by anxiety and fear. Stuff like Oregon's experiments with Citizen Juries have kept my hope alive. Barely. "Jefferson Smith talks with Linn Davis from Healthy Democracy. Linn oversees the Citizens Initiative Review, in which Oregon voters deliberate a ballot initiative and provide a statement for the voters' pamphlet. The use of citizens' juries to weigh in on public policy has been exported to other states and other countries, including Switzerland where Linn Davis visited in the Fall of 2019." https://democracynerd.us/episode/exporting-oregon-style-democracy https://democracynerd.us/episode/exporting-oregon-style-demo...
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all others that has been tried. Competent kings are great, but then we have to figure out how to get rid of them before they go literally crazy, or before their incompetent children mess everything up. ----- Honestly, the main issue today just is the same issue that has plagued democracies for centuries. Misinformation and demagogues. People like kings and authoritarians. People like breaking the rules as long as it supports their side. Caesar can march over the Rubicon in gross violation of law and become a national hero (and emperor) This has been known for thousands of years. Republics die because the people get tired of it and give up for a king or dictator or Caesar.
  - specialist 5y ago
    Societies lurch from tyranny to revolution and then back again. Because preferential attachment leading to winner takes all is something akin to a natural law. Tyranny. Because no open ended complex adaptive system can sustain a stable equilibrium. Revolution. Democracy and other notions try to find a middle path, to avoid the two extremes. Sometimes it works, a little bit, for a little while. Just because no stable middle path is possible doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Over the ages, we've gotten a bit better at it. h/t Robert Wright's book Nonzero.
- rnd0 5y ago
  What do you suggest as a working alternative?
  - listless 5y ago
    I don’t see any that look plausible. I would prefer a liberal democracy but I think we’re going to veer into right or left wing fascism because eventually we have to stop the bleeding and an authoritarian element will be required to do that. I don’t like the landscape. Not one bit.
- over_bridge 5y ago
  Sometimes I wonder if we just have too much democracy. What if we could move more to an indirect democracy? (I use the word 'we' loosely as I could be talking about any modern democracy, not a specific nation) What if instead of electing the leader of a country, we elected the group that hired the leader? Like electing the board of a company rather than shareholders voting directly for a CEO. This group would be perpetual campaigners, always out and about to understand the needs of the community. This is a full time job and a skill set that is quite different from managing a high level team or creating legislation. They would relay these to the President and discuss issues regularly with them. The President would be a normal employee in a sense (in the way that a CEO is a 'normal employee'). They wouldn't have to campaign for their role, nor run for re-election. They would be appointed by the elected group and also removed by them should their performance be poor, or the dominant ideology of the group change. I'm not mad enough to think this would be a perfect process. There would still be lobbying and deal making but my hope would be that it is one step removed from the leaders themselves. Let them actually do their job with some dignity rather than forcing them to always be running for the next election and being trashed by opponents in the media. Can we normalise the jobs of our leaders to encourage higher caliber applicants? What if we could have a leader that wasn't hated by 49% of the population before they even started?
  - filoeleven 5y ago
    You might like some form of liquid democracy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy
- Proven 5y ago
  It has never worked. The difference between now and before is in the early days of damage from democracy was still small. Death by thousand cuts. Why democracy can't work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed The solution radical decentralization and smaller governments that don't permit vote buying through elections.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

I just want to be honest for a moment with someone: I don’t think democracy works anymore. The model is predicated on representatives speaking for the people and regulating a few large entities. It is simply not setup to handle when everyone speaks and everyone is an entity. Perhaps we need a new take on democracy, but what I see is it falling apart in front of our eyes and all we can do is watch.

specialist 5y ago
Ya. I've always thought the answer was more deliberative democracy. Hard to imagine how that can happen with modern media funded by advertising, the outrage engine fueled by anxiety and fear. Stuff like Oregon's experiments with Citizen Juries have kept my hope alive. Barely. "Jefferson Smith talks with Linn Davis from Healthy Democracy. Linn oversees the Citizens Initiative Review, in which Oregon voters deliberate a ballot initiative and provide a statement for the voters' pamphlet. The use of citizens' juries to weigh in on public policy has been exported to other states and other countries, including Switzerland where Linn Davis visited in the Fall of 2019." https://democracynerd.us/episode/exporting-oregon-style-democracy https://democracynerd.us/episode/exporting-oregon-style-demo...
dragontamer 5y ago
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all others that has been tried. Competent kings are great, but then we have to figure out how to get rid of them before they go literally crazy, or before their incompetent children mess everything up. ----- Honestly, the main issue today just is the same issue that has plagued democracies for centuries. Misinformation and demagogues. People like kings and authoritarians. People like breaking the rules as long as it supports their side. Caesar can march over the Rubicon in gross violation of law and become a national hero (and emperor) This has been known for thousands of years. Republics die because the people get tired of it and give up for a king or dictator or Caesar.
- specialist 5y ago
  Societies lurch from tyranny to revolution and then back again. Because preferential attachment leading to winner takes all is something akin to a natural law. Tyranny. Because no open ended complex adaptive system can sustain a stable equilibrium. Revolution. Democracy and other notions try to find a middle path, to avoid the two extremes. Sometimes it works, a little bit, for a little while. Just because no stable middle path is possible doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Over the ages, we've gotten a bit better at it. h/t Robert Wright's book Nonzero.
rnd0 5y ago
What do you suggest as a working alternative?
- listless 5y ago
  I don’t see any that look plausible. I would prefer a liberal democracy but I think we’re going to veer into right or left wing fascism because eventually we have to stop the bleeding and an authoritarian element will be required to do that. I don’t like the landscape. Not one bit.
over_bridge 5y ago
Sometimes I wonder if we just have too much democracy. What if we could move more to an indirect democracy? (I use the word 'we' loosely as I could be talking about any modern democracy, not a specific nation) What if instead of electing the leader of a country, we elected the group that hired the leader? Like electing the board of a company rather than shareholders voting directly for a CEO. This group would be perpetual campaigners, always out and about to understand the needs of the community. This is a full time job and a skill set that is quite different from managing a high level team or creating legislation. They would relay these to the President and discuss issues regularly with them. The President would be a normal employee in a sense (in the way that a CEO is a 'normal employee'). They wouldn't have to campaign for their role, nor run for re-election. They would be appointed by the elected group and also removed by them should their performance be poor, or the dominant ideology of the group change. I'm not mad enough to think this would be a perfect process. There would still be lobbying and deal making but my hope would be that it is one step removed from the leaders themselves. Let them actually do their job with some dignity rather than forcing them to always be running for the next election and being trashed by opponents in the media. Can we normalise the jobs of our leaders to encourage higher caliber applicants? What if we could have a leader that wasn't hated by 49% of the population before they even started?
- filoeleven 5y ago
  You might like some form of liquid democracy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy
Proven 5y ago
It has never worked. The difference between now and before is in the early days of damage from democracy was still small. Death by thousand cuts. Why democracy can't work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed The solution radical decentralization and smaller governments that don't permit vote buying through elections.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]