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> Also, forgive me if I'm wrong about this but the entire point of Linux and open source seems to be that you can do whatever you want with it, the users don't

> Also, forgive me if I'm wrong about this but the entire point of Linux and open source seems to be that you can do whatever you want with it, the users don't usually need to end up patching the apps because some other distro will do it (and many of them already seem to), so usually you can find someone else who wants to support it. What do you think will happen when developers who've built their apps using GTK3 start migrating their apps to GTK4? They'll most likely pick libadwaita like the developer of GTkeddit did. He wasn't aware about how libadwaita is going to enforce its own theme and was surprised when I told him about it. Now, I know I'll never use his app because it's using libadwaita but what if apps like Firefox start using GTK4 with libadwaita? What do I do then? Switch to Chromium? It uses GTK as well. The so-called choice that open source offers is merely an illusion in some cases. The choices that GNOME devs make end up hurting users like me who want nothing do with GNOME and who aren't even using GNOME.

lavabiopsy 5y ago
I don't understand why you're saying that hurts you, that doesn't make sense. If that developer wanted to add support for themes on top of libadwaita they could easily do that, GNOME is not preventing anyone from doing that. Also, what you have told the GTkeddit developer was very likely not correct, users can still load their own theme and libadwaita will not override that. The libadwaita change is about the platform theme, not the user's theme, the user theme still has top priority. I would suggest to correct your statement to that developer before they make an uninformed decision. But that also leads to another point: libadwaita is intended to be a library that implements the GNOME HIG. If you are using libadwaita apps, that means you are using an app that is intended for GNOME -- so if you "want nothing to do with GNOME" then I don't understand why you would be intentionally using their apps and then complaining that they don't act right with a non-GNOME desktop. A developer who chooses to use that is intentionally choosing to go with the GNOME platform, and there is no reason to be upset about that -- it's not a decision that you have to worry about if you just want to ignore GNOME apps. Also I think you have a misunderstanding of how Firefox is built, they are a cross platform app, they are not going to use libadwaita. They already have their own theme system too and have for quite some time: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/themes/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/themes/ I would advise to do more research before making assumptions about these things, if you have questions you'd like to ask then those are a better way to start rather than jumping to the worst possible conclusion. Please try to be careful about online misinformation.
- ayushnix 5y ago
  > Also, what you have told the GTkeddit developer was very likely not correct, users can still load their own theme and libadwaita will not override that. The libadwaita change is about the platform theme, not the user's theme, the user theme still has top priority. Haven't Clasen and several other devs on the issue tracker you and I linked above clearly has statements like "linking to libadwaita is an explicit decision to use the Adwaita theme" and "core GNOME applications linking to libadwaita will then thereby require that every distribution shipping GNOME is forced to consent to having Adwaita as the theme". The only way a user's own custom theme will be used if a proposed opt-in flag is added to libadwaita (doesn't seem like it will be, recoloring API is being favored) and app developers use that flag. Correct me if I'm wrong in this point and I'd be happy to go back and talk to the GTkeddit developer again but from what he independently tested, he seems to have reached the same result as I think.
  - lavabiopsy 5y ago
    >linking to libadwaita is an explicit decision to use the Adwaita theme Yes, linking to Adwaita is a decision to use Adwaita theme by default, because the widgets in it are intentionally designed to work well with only with those specific colors, spacings, fonts, etc. But the app developer can override that afterwards if they have additional CSS. >every distribution shipping GNOME is forced to consent to having Adwaita as the theme Can you show where this quote came from? This makes no sense and I do not understand why someone would say this at all, any distribution shipping GNOME is free to modify the Adwaita theme or ship another theme, as Ubuntu is already doing for some time. GNOME developers may grumble about it and write more letters like this but they cannot stop them from doing that, no one is "forced to consent" to anything as this is all open source code. If you notice from the letter, the concern is actually the opposite, it's about about downstream forcing their untested themes on some GNOME apps without concern for the app developer, which is resulting in bugs and unhappy users. >The only way a user's own custom theme will be used if a proposed opt-in flag is added to libadwaita No, this is incorrect. The opt-in flag is about the platform theme. The change in libadwaita does not affect the user's theme. User's theme still has top priority over all other CSS, this is documented: https://docs.gtk.org/gtk4/class.CssProvider.html https://docs.gtk.org/gtk4/class.CssProvider.html And you can in fact verify that it works if you have the latest libadwaita from git master. I would like to again emphasize that even if this weren't the case, the code is open source and it would still be quite trivial to comment out some lines and install your own CSS, and that is the worst case scenario. So realistically there is little reason for alarm.

lavabiopsy 5y ago

I don't understand why you're saying that hurts you, that doesn't make sense. If that developer wanted to add support for themes on top of libadwaita they could easily do that, GNOME is not preventing anyone from doing that. Also, what you have told the GTkeddit developer was very likely not correct, users can still load their own theme and libadwaita will not override that. The libadwaita change is about the platform theme, not the user's theme, the user theme still has top priority. I would suggest to correct your statement to that developer before they make an uninformed decision. But that also leads to another point: libadwaita is intended to be a library that implements the GNOME HIG. If you are using libadwaita apps, that means you are using an app that is intended for GNOME -- so if you "want nothing to do with GNOME" then I don't understand why you would be intentionally using their apps and then complaining that they don't act right with a non-GNOME desktop. A developer who chooses to use that is intentionally choosing to go with the GNOME platform, and there is no reason to be upset about that -- it's not a decision that you have to worry about if you just want to ignore GNOME apps. Also I think you have a misunderstanding of how Firefox is built, they are a cross platform app, they are not going to use libadwaita. They already have their own theme system too and have for quite some time: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/themes/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/themes/ I would advise to do more research before making assumptions about these things, if you have questions you'd like to ask then those are a better way to start rather than jumping to the worst possible conclusion. Please try to be careful about online misinformation.

ayushnix 5y ago
> Also, what you have told the GTkeddit developer was very likely not correct, users can still load their own theme and libadwaita will not override that. The libadwaita change is about the platform theme, not the user's theme, the user theme still has top priority. Haven't Clasen and several other devs on the issue tracker you and I linked above clearly has statements like "linking to libadwaita is an explicit decision to use the Adwaita theme" and "core GNOME applications linking to libadwaita will then thereby require that every distribution shipping GNOME is forced to consent to having Adwaita as the theme". The only way a user's own custom theme will be used if a proposed opt-in flag is added to libadwaita (doesn't seem like it will be, recoloring API is being favored) and app developers use that flag. Correct me if I'm wrong in this point and I'd be happy to go back and talk to the GTkeddit developer again but from what he independently tested, he seems to have reached the same result as I think.
- lavabiopsy 5y ago
  >linking to libadwaita is an explicit decision to use the Adwaita theme Yes, linking to Adwaita is a decision to use Adwaita theme by default, because the widgets in it are intentionally designed to work well with only with those specific colors, spacings, fonts, etc. But the app developer can override that afterwards if they have additional CSS. >every distribution shipping GNOME is forced to consent to having Adwaita as the theme Can you show where this quote came from? This makes no sense and I do not understand why someone would say this at all, any distribution shipping GNOME is free to modify the Adwaita theme or ship another theme, as Ubuntu is already doing for some time. GNOME developers may grumble about it and write more letters like this but they cannot stop them from doing that, no one is "forced to consent" to anything as this is all open source code. If you notice from the letter, the concern is actually the opposite, it's about about downstream forcing their untested themes on some GNOME apps without concern for the app developer, which is resulting in bugs and unhappy users. >The only way a user's own custom theme will be used if a proposed opt-in flag is added to libadwaita No, this is incorrect. The opt-in flag is about the platform theme. The change in libadwaita does not affect the user's theme. User's theme still has top priority over all other CSS, this is documented: https://docs.gtk.org/gtk4/class.CssProvider.html https://docs.gtk.org/gtk4/class.CssProvider.html And you can in fact verify that it works if you have the latest libadwaita from git master. I would like to again emphasize that even if this weren't the case, the code is open source and it would still be quite trivial to comment out some lines and install your own CSS, and that is the worst case scenario. So realistically there is little reason for alarm.