6 ms·

The crime is bad in South Africa, yes, but it's not the worst in the world. Same with the corruption. One good thing South Africa has going for it is that the m

by jmopp 5y ago

The crime is bad in South Africa, yes, but it's not the worst in the world. Same with the corruption. One good thing South Africa has going for it is that the media and judiciary are stil independent, and criticising the government is seen as a public duty. South Africa also has a higher GDP per capita than Ukraine. Yes, it is one of the most unequal countries in the world, but the rather cynical consequence of that is that if you're in the middle class, your life is on par with that of a middle-class American.

postsantum 5y ago
The country has the highest rape rate in the world and Cape Town is the murder capital of the world
- nsomaru 5y ago
  Unfortunately the level of inequality plays a role here. If you’re happy rolling in affluent areas the “real” level of risk you’re exposed to is much lower.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    I doubt you can completely insulate yourself from the environment though. Criminals at some point start targeting the rich with all kinds of methods, "protection" payments (extortion) etc. Or what do you do if someone points a gun to your head to rob your car? Are you expected to drive everywhere with body guards?
    - wesleywt 5y ago
      Where in SA do you live? I am Cape Town. None of this happens.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - nsomaru 5y ago
        Durban, it’s chilled. Recent riots don’t count :P
    - sgt 5y ago
      Where is this? I mean.. crime exists for sure, but I doubt most people even in JHB are that paranoid. If you just keep out of dodgy areas, you're pretty safe. SA still feels super chill and safe compared to say Brazil or Mexico.
      - joelbluminator 5y ago
        Murder rate is higher than in Brazil actually and much higher than in Mexico https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-ra....
        nsomaru 5y ago
        The point is that real risk is unevenly spread to quoting a stat like that is meaningless
        sgt 5y ago
        But that's besides the point... you would never go into those places (i.e black townships) at night. That's when the murders happen. Lots of stabbings etc at shabeens. I assume that in Brazil and Mexico you have a high chance of being mugged on the street and such.
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    Even in affluent areas, nobody stops at red lights at night. Criminals might shoot you in the head just to steal the vehicle. Does that sound like a "much lower" level of risk?
    - d13 5y ago
      This happened to me at red light in Claremont (a Cape Town suburb.) Stopped at a red light at night and was ambushed by a guy wielding a crowbar. Hit the gas just in time and went straight through the light without checking for traffic.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      It seems to me like this whole issue became political. Progressive left: SA crime rates aren't that bad, Whites have it good there. They are privileged. Conservative right: SA is collapsing into a mayhem of corruption, rape and murders. As usual we are all mostly captives of our world views and opinions and talk past each other. I am starting to see myself more and more in the political center because of these biases on both sides.
      - inter_netuser 5y ago
        "Both sides" is not a particularly good cognitive tool, in my experience. They are mostly illusory sides anyway, there are as many sides as there are people. I've personally even been accused of having "inconsistent political views" at times, as if it was a cardinal sin. Have you heard of something called "luxury belief" by any chance? seems fashionable these days to spout obvious nonsense.
        joelbluminator 5y ago
        > there are as many sides as there are people. I think you are mistaken, many people completely align themselves with their ideology and the political camp they belong to. It's becoming very uncommon to voice a different opinion that is contrary to the "tribe" you belong to. Try saying something good that Trump has done (could be anything, surely there must be something) to democrats and tell me how it went.
  - wesleywt 5y ago
    Some commenters are exaggerating. Nearly all of the crime is centered in the poor areas. If you are affluent your risk is minimal.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      So all the commenters are affluent? E.g surfing HackerNews = has enough money for body guards?
  - sgt 5y ago
    This is correct. I am in an affluent area in South Africa, and my day to day is pretty much as similar to a European or US lifestyle that you can get. I do not live in a security estate and I have never in my life been exposed to crime. This does not mean SA crime stories are untrue, but I think it's important to maintain perspective here.
    - nsomaru 5y ago
      This is my story too.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      In Europe you don't have to be affluent to live relatively safely. And murder rates in SA are around 8 times higher than in the U.S, you could make the same claim that most people killed in the U.S are gang related. It's still 8 times worse in SA and I really doubt the middle class is 100% unaffected by this. Yes the extremely rich maybe do not care, not everyone is very rich. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...
      - sgt 5y ago
        I am in an upper middle class neighborhood myself. I didn't say crime doesn't exist in SA, nor did I say that the middle class is 100% unaffected. However - using the murder rate alone is misleading. I don't worry about crime but we do have an alarm system just in case. In areas closer to crime hot spots, the community watches and private security often do a good job keeping the riff raff away.
- pythonic_hell 5y ago
  This statment is factually incorrect and is a common alt-right talking point that is repeated on the internet with little factual basis in reality. There are a few reasons for this; * Different definitions of rape across countries and time * Rape offences are counted differently * An echo-chamber effect - lazy journalism * Under-reporting rates are unknown and are often extrapolated by Statistics South Africa You can find out more at this report created by AfricaCheck - a non-partisan media and statistics watchdo; https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/reports/why-its-wrong-call-south-africa-or-any-country-worlds-rape-capital https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/reports/why-its-wrong-ca...
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    It seems like sexual violence in SA is very high, I don't see how you can claim otherwise after reading the Wikipedia entry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_South_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_South_Afric...
    - pythonic_hell 5y ago
      You are correct, violence and sexual violence are a big issue in South Africa. By no means was I trying to say that it isn’t but there’s a big difference between being a “rape capital” and having high rates of sexual violence. The term “rape/murder capital of the world” is often perpetrated and encouraged by neo-nazi pundits to stoke “white fear” with miss representations of the facts. This is why it’s important to understand the nuances and context of these statistics inorder to avoid falling into the dogmatic conversations.
      - joelbluminator 5y ago
        You could counter this argument by saying that to minimize the problem is anti feminist. The term "rape capital" indeed sounds hyperbolic but maybe it will help mobilize the people in charge there to do something about it.
  - postsantum 5y ago

by jmopp 5y ago

postsantum 5y ago

The country has the highest rape rate in the world and Cape Town is the murder capital of the world

nsomaru 5y ago
Unfortunately the level of inequality plays a role here. If you’re happy rolling in affluent areas the “real” level of risk you’re exposed to is much lower.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  I doubt you can completely insulate yourself from the environment though. Criminals at some point start targeting the rich with all kinds of methods, "protection" payments (extortion) etc. Or what do you do if someone points a gun to your head to rob your car? Are you expected to drive everywhere with body guards?
  - wesleywt 5y ago
    Where in SA do you live? I am Cape Town. None of this happens.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - nsomaru 5y ago
      Durban, it’s chilled. Recent riots don’t count :P
  - sgt 5y ago
    Where is this? I mean.. crime exists for sure, but I doubt most people even in JHB are that paranoid. If you just keep out of dodgy areas, you're pretty safe. SA still feels super chill and safe compared to say Brazil or Mexico.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      Murder rate is higher than in Brazil actually and much higher than in Mexico https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-ra....
      - nsomaru 5y ago
        The point is that real risk is unevenly spread to quoting a stat like that is meaningless
      - sgt 5y ago
        But that's besides the point... you would never go into those places (i.e black townships) at night. That's when the murders happen. Lots of stabbings etc at shabeens. I assume that in Brazil and Mexico you have a high chance of being mugged on the street and such.
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  Even in affluent areas, nobody stops at red lights at night. Criminals might shoot you in the head just to steal the vehicle. Does that sound like a "much lower" level of risk?
  - d13 5y ago
    This happened to me at red light in Claremont (a Cape Town suburb.) Stopped at a red light at night and was ambushed by a guy wielding a crowbar. Hit the gas just in time and went straight through the light without checking for traffic.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    It seems to me like this whole issue became political. Progressive left: SA crime rates aren't that bad, Whites have it good there. They are privileged. Conservative right: SA is collapsing into a mayhem of corruption, rape and murders. As usual we are all mostly captives of our world views and opinions and talk past each other. I am starting to see myself more and more in the political center because of these biases on both sides.
    - inter_netuser 5y ago
      "Both sides" is not a particularly good cognitive tool, in my experience. They are mostly illusory sides anyway, there are as many sides as there are people. I've personally even been accused of having "inconsistent political views" at times, as if it was a cardinal sin. Have you heard of something called "luxury belief" by any chance? seems fashionable these days to spout obvious nonsense.
      - joelbluminator 5y ago
        > there are as many sides as there are people. I think you are mistaken, many people completely align themselves with their ideology and the political camp they belong to. It's becoming very uncommon to voice a different opinion that is contrary to the "tribe" you belong to. Try saying something good that Trump has done (could be anything, surely there must be something) to democrats and tell me how it went.
- wesleywt 5y ago
  Some commenters are exaggerating. Nearly all of the crime is centered in the poor areas. If you are affluent your risk is minimal.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    So all the commenters are affluent? E.g surfing HackerNews = has enough money for body guards?
- sgt 5y ago
  This is correct. I am in an affluent area in South Africa, and my day to day is pretty much as similar to a European or US lifestyle that you can get. I do not live in a security estate and I have never in my life been exposed to crime. This does not mean SA crime stories are untrue, but I think it's important to maintain perspective here.
  - nsomaru 5y ago
    This is my story too.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    In Europe you don't have to be affluent to live relatively safely. And murder rates in SA are around 8 times higher than in the U.S, you could make the same claim that most people killed in the U.S are gang related. It's still 8 times worse in SA and I really doubt the middle class is 100% unaffected by this. Yes the extremely rich maybe do not care, not everyone is very rich. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...
    - sgt 5y ago
      I am in an upper middle class neighborhood myself. I didn't say crime doesn't exist in SA, nor did I say that the middle class is 100% unaffected. However - using the murder rate alone is misleading. I don't worry about crime but we do have an alarm system just in case. In areas closer to crime hot spots, the community watches and private security often do a good job keeping the riff raff away.
pythonic_hell 5y ago
This statment is factually incorrect and is a common alt-right talking point that is repeated on the internet with little factual basis in reality. There are a few reasons for this; * Different definitions of rape across countries and time * Rape offences are counted differently * An echo-chamber effect - lazy journalism * Under-reporting rates are unknown and are often extrapolated by Statistics South Africa You can find out more at this report created by AfricaCheck - a non-partisan media and statistics watchdo; https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/reports/why-its-wrong-call-south-africa-or-any-country-worlds-rape-capital https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/reports/why-its-wrong-ca...
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  It seems like sexual violence in SA is very high, I don't see how you can claim otherwise after reading the Wikipedia entry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_South_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_South_Afric...
  - pythonic_hell 5y ago
    You are correct, violence and sexual violence are a big issue in South Africa. By no means was I trying to say that it isn’t but there’s a big difference between being a “rape capital” and having high rates of sexual violence. The term “rape/murder capital of the world” is often perpetrated and encouraged by neo-nazi pundits to stoke “white fear” with miss representations of the facts. This is why it’s important to understand the nuances and context of these statistics inorder to avoid falling into the dogmatic conversations.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      You could counter this argument by saying that to minimize the problem is anti feminist. The term "rape capital" indeed sounds hyperbolic but maybe it will help mobilize the people in charge there to do something about it.
- postsantum 5y ago