3 ms·

But why not just say if a person is a man or a woman, why does it have to be pronouns. When I see pronouns, I then assume they believe in an ideology where peop

But why not just say if a person is a man or a woman, why does it have to be pronouns. When I see pronouns, I then assume they believe in an ideology where people can actually change sex and basic reality is denied. Where people can simply declare the reality they want, and force others to play along. Why does everyone have to play along with this ideology, aka, the pronoun game.

deanCommie 5y ago
> When I see pronouns, I then assume That's your fault, not the fault of the concept of pronouns. In the thread above, teachers and people working in international companies both explained benefits to having pronouns listed that have nothing to do with gender expression. So, your assumption is flawed. Secondly, let's consider your terminology: "Basic reality"; "force others to play along"; "pronoun game". Consider this scenario: You: "Hi, are you Matthew?" Matthew: "Yes, but actually I prefer Matt, could you call me Matt?" Do you: A: "Sure, no problem. Hey Matt, Joe said we should discuss Project Foobar, etc" B: "No. Your name is Matthew, this is basic reality. Why are you forcing me to play along with your PREFERRED NAME GAME?" I think we all know the answer to this question. How is this different from: A new coworker starts on your team named Chris. They seem to have some masculine features but they also have long hair, are wearing makeup and a dress. But you are pretty sure they were born male. You: "Hey, let's organize Chris's Welcome Lunch. Does anyone know his food preference?" Your coworker: "Actually their pronouns are she/her." Do you A: "Sure, does anyone know her food preference?" B: See B above. If you think the situations are completely different, here's a third scenario. Chris is a butch woman with short hair, not a transgender person. You: "Hey, let's organize Chris's Welcome Lunch. Does anyone know his food preference?" Your coworker: "Actually, Chris is a woman." What's the difference? Why is your opinion on gender expression, transgender "ideology", chromosomes, or anything else of the sort matter at all? This is just basic human socialization 101. Treat people like they ask you to be treated in situations where there is no extra cost to you. That's it. It requires no more difference or effort to remember than in any other social circumstance separate from pronouns. Appendix: Yes, I am aware of the extreme exceptions. I'm sure you can find me some angry tweets from trans people who overreacted to some situation or another. But let's remember the context. People are angry because the basic human decency I described above is NOT offered to them. So yes, there are misunderstandings and chips on shoulders. But we don't need to base policy or perspective of opinions based on extreme outliers on twitter.
- mbrodersen 5y ago
  I actually believe I am God. So please address me as “My Lord” or “My Saviour”. If you don’t then you are clearly a violent oppressor of mentally alternative individuals. Crazy people are people too you know and deserve the same respect and non-violence as the next guy/girl/entity/abstract/mutation/…
  - deanCommie 5y ago
    There are some key differences that this and the "attack helicopter" memers miss. There are people who believe they are God (There are people who believe htey are Attack Helicopters, I'm sure). But they are very few and far between. We ignore them, we marginalize them. Or, best case, we treat them. Now, I'm not trying to open the pandora's box on the medical community's perspective on transgenderism. We can have this conversation after, but I am deliberately focusing on pronouns for a start. Because when it comes to pronouns, in English-language society, we DO treat people based on gendered pronouns - male and female ones. Basically 100% of our time, 50% one, 50% the other. So a person who is asking to be addressed as "My saviour" is asking for unique preferential treatment that you are likely not offering anyone else in life. A person who is asking to be addressed as the gender pronouns of the other gender is asking to be treated the same way that you already treat 50% of the people you encounter, just to be re-categorized. And that's not a big ask because in the VAST Majority of cases you encounter, that person will already be presenting MOSTLY as the gender that they are asking to be treated as. Now, you might say that being asked to be treated as a different gender than you are born is just as unusual as being asked to be treated as a God. But we don't even need to get into the statistics of prevalence to recognize that the numbers are not relevant. You already have to go through life learning 1) people's names, 2) people's nicknames, 3) people's gender when they are ambiguous or deliberately provocative. This is common metadata you remember about people. Part of existing in society is learning other human's social characteristics, and incorporating them into how you interact with them. Pronouns are not meaningfully different.
    - mbrodersen 5y ago
      I feel triggered by your disagreement. People who believe they are God is clearly a minority. And therefore deserve special treatment. I might be a God but I have feelings too you know.
pugz 5y ago
To clarify: you’re ok with the words “man” and “woman”, but not “he”, “him”, “she” and “her”? I think you need to work on that, because you seem to be projecting a lot for something that really doesn’t matter.

deanCommie 5y ago

> When I see pronouns, I then assume That's your fault, not the fault of the concept of pronouns. In the thread above, teachers and people working in international companies both explained benefits to having pronouns listed that have nothing to do with gender expression. So, your assumption is flawed. Secondly, let's consider your terminology: "Basic reality"; "force others to play along"; "pronoun game". Consider this scenario: You: "Hi, are you Matthew?" Matthew: "Yes, but actually I prefer Matt, could you call me Matt?" Do you: A: "Sure, no problem. Hey Matt, Joe said we should discuss Project Foobar, etc" B: "No. Your name is Matthew, this is basic reality. Why are you forcing me to play along with your PREFERRED NAME GAME?" I think we all know the answer to this question. How is this different from: A new coworker starts on your team named Chris. They seem to have some masculine features but they also have long hair, are wearing makeup and a dress. But you are pretty sure they were born male. You: "Hey, let's organize Chris's Welcome Lunch. Does anyone know his food preference?" Your coworker: "Actually their pronouns are she/her." Do you A: "Sure, does anyone know her food preference?" B: See B above. If you think the situations are completely different, here's a third scenario. Chris is a butch woman with short hair, not a transgender person. You: "Hey, let's organize Chris's Welcome Lunch. Does anyone know his food preference?" Your coworker: "Actually, Chris is a woman." What's the difference? Why is your opinion on gender expression, transgender "ideology", chromosomes, or anything else of the sort matter at all? This is just basic human socialization 101. Treat people like they ask you to be treated in situations where there is no extra cost to you. That's it. It requires no more difference or effort to remember than in any other social circumstance separate from pronouns. Appendix: Yes, I am aware of the extreme exceptions. I'm sure you can find me some angry tweets from trans people who overreacted to some situation or another. But let's remember the context. People are angry because the basic human decency I described above is NOT offered to them. So yes, there are misunderstandings and chips on shoulders. But we don't need to base policy or perspective of opinions based on extreme outliers on twitter.

mbrodersen 5y ago
I actually believe I am God. So please address me as “My Lord” or “My Saviour”. If you don’t then you are clearly a violent oppressor of mentally alternative individuals. Crazy people are people too you know and deserve the same respect and non-violence as the next guy/girl/entity/abstract/mutation/…
- deanCommie 5y ago
  There are some key differences that this and the "attack helicopter" memers miss. There are people who believe they are God (There are people who believe htey are Attack Helicopters, I'm sure). But they are very few and far between. We ignore them, we marginalize them. Or, best case, we treat them. Now, I'm not trying to open the pandora's box on the medical community's perspective on transgenderism. We can have this conversation after, but I am deliberately focusing on pronouns for a start. Because when it comes to pronouns, in English-language society, we DO treat people based on gendered pronouns - male and female ones. Basically 100% of our time, 50% one, 50% the other. So a person who is asking to be addressed as "My saviour" is asking for unique preferential treatment that you are likely not offering anyone else in life. A person who is asking to be addressed as the gender pronouns of the other gender is asking to be treated the same way that you already treat 50% of the people you encounter, just to be re-categorized. And that's not a big ask because in the VAST Majority of cases you encounter, that person will already be presenting MOSTLY as the gender that they are asking to be treated as. Now, you might say that being asked to be treated as a different gender than you are born is just as unusual as being asked to be treated as a God. But we don't even need to get into the statistics of prevalence to recognize that the numbers are not relevant. You already have to go through life learning 1) people's names, 2) people's nicknames, 3) people's gender when they are ambiguous or deliberately provocative. This is common metadata you remember about people. Part of existing in society is learning other human's social characteristics, and incorporating them into how you interact with them. Pronouns are not meaningfully different.
  - mbrodersen 5y ago
    I feel triggered by your disagreement. People who believe they are God is clearly a minority. And therefore deserve special treatment. I might be a God but I have feelings too you know.

pugz 5y ago

To clarify: you’re ok with the words “man” and “woman”, but not “he”, “him”, “she” and “her”? I think you need to work on that, because you seem to be projecting a lot for something that really doesn’t matter.