4 ms·

It's not always true that you "just have to give it back"; repeat offenders do get taken to the woodshed sometimes. But, when employers and employees steal fro

It's not always true that you "just have to give it back"; repeat offenders do get taken to the woodshed sometimes. But, when employers and employees steal from each other, the fact that one is a criminal matter and the other a civil matter says a great deal about the law is and what purpose it was designed to serve.

anonchan 5y ago
Stealing from a restaurant is a criminal matter because you're taking (by force or concealing your actions) what doesn't belong to you. A restaurant not paying wages is a civil matter because they failed to fulfill their contractual obligations to pay you and are in debt. Arguing that taking money by force and not paying money are equivalent is comparing apples and oranges. (It may be appropriate to criminalize failing to pay employees, but I'm not sure about the first and higher-order effects of doing so, or how to craft legal principles and laws with the right incentives, while avoiding special cases like the laundry list of exemptions to California's AB5.)
- NoahTheDuke 5y ago
  I love the phrase “comparing apples to oranges” because while I know the intended meaning, the literal meaning is the opposite: they’re both sweet fruits that are common in western society, they’re sliced and juiced and used in a variety of dishes, and they are readily available. The difference between “stealing cash” and “wage theft” is only a difference in perspective. The employee didn’t perform any labor to earn the money they took so they’ve broken the contract and now they’re in debt to the restaurant. Likewise, an employee’s labor is a fungible resource they control and the expenditure of it that solely benefits the restaurant through a lie (concealing their actions) is no different than someone scamming the person at the register and walking out without paying.
- ineptech 5y ago
  > A restaurant not paying wages is a civil matter because they failed to fulfill their contractual obligations to pay you... That's tautological. The actual reason it's a civil matter is because the people who write and interpret the law want it that way, yes?
tadfisher 5y ago
I just Googled and saw that wage theft is actually a crime in Minnesota, punishable by fines and jail time. So it's not universally treated as a civil violation, at least.
- candiodari 5y ago
  And is that wage theft as in a local manager literally stealing wages, or wage theft as in general management chronically underpaying and having explicit policies to prevent workers from using their rights, deny them health coverage, ... ?

anonchan 5y ago

Stealing from a restaurant is a criminal matter because you're taking (by force or concealing your actions) what doesn't belong to you. A restaurant not paying wages is a civil matter because they failed to fulfill their contractual obligations to pay you and are in debt. Arguing that taking money by force and not paying money are equivalent is comparing apples and oranges. (It may be appropriate to criminalize failing to pay employees, but I'm not sure about the first and higher-order effects of doing so, or how to craft legal principles and laws with the right incentives, while avoiding special cases like the laundry list of exemptions to California's AB5.)

NoahTheDuke 5y ago
I love the phrase “comparing apples to oranges” because while I know the intended meaning, the literal meaning is the opposite: they’re both sweet fruits that are common in western society, they’re sliced and juiced and used in a variety of dishes, and they are readily available. The difference between “stealing cash” and “wage theft” is only a difference in perspective. The employee didn’t perform any labor to earn the money they took so they’ve broken the contract and now they’re in debt to the restaurant. Likewise, an employee’s labor is a fungible resource they control and the expenditure of it that solely benefits the restaurant through a lie (concealing their actions) is no different than someone scamming the person at the register and walking out without paying.
ineptech 5y ago
> A restaurant not paying wages is a civil matter because they failed to fulfill their contractual obligations to pay you... That's tautological. The actual reason it's a civil matter is because the people who write and interpret the law want it that way, yes?

tadfisher 5y ago

I just Googled and saw that wage theft is actually a crime in Minnesota, punishable by fines and jail time. So it's not universally treated as a civil violation, at least.

candiodari 5y ago
And is that wage theft as in a local manager literally stealing wages, or wage theft as in general management chronically underpaying and having explicit policies to prevent workers from using their rights, deny them health coverage, ... ?