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I also happen to be black but that actually has very little bearing on what I have to say and am merely mentioning it to prevent anyone from suggesting that my

I also happen to be black but that actually has very little bearing on what I have to say and am merely mentioning it to prevent anyone from suggesting that my opinion on the matter is related to my skin color. The problem with this is no one actually trained the AI to have a racially bias but rather did not train it on recognizing the difference. Why? Probably because no one knew the computer was going to identify this resemblance and immediately label it as such (I have heard babies learning to talk and name shapes/colors do the exact same thing with no outside influence) Computer vision operates on matrices of color coordinates that share resemblances with other similar matrices and attempts to match patterns between multiple sets to establish resemblance. It is not the fault of the computer or the programmer that there are coincidental resemblances that exceed it’s learned threshold where it decides that the two sets represents objects of the same type. I personally am ok with admitting that my skin color visually is more similar to images of certain non human primates and can understand why this problem is not a programmer bias but actually a complicated computer vision problem as it’s easy to spot the resemblance but often difficult to train a neural net on why the images resemble eachother but are not related.

jrm4 5y ago
That first sentence, man. Like, I feel bad second guessing people, in some ways it's not my right -- but it so feels like the kind of "respectability" talk I used to say out of what I thought was "the truth," but now realize it was a sort of habitual way to defuse the room. So I will state clearly -- yes, I am aware my opinions are absolutely related to my skin color and that's precisely why you all need to pay special attention to them. Not because of some sort of silly inherent genetic thing, but because I have experiences that many of you don't.
- jrm4 5y ago
  Said it before, saying it again. I merely said "pay special attention," not "always 100% agree." You've got two black folks here with differing opinions ostensibly ready to discuss. I have no problem with being disagreed with, but I'm still good suggesting that mere downvoting isn't helping.
- pure_simplicity 5y ago
  > " I am aware my opinions are absolutely related to my skin color and that's precisely why you all need to pay special attention to them. Not because of some sort of silly inherent genetic thing, but because I have experiences that many of you don't." We used to think of this as racist stereotyping, but in the pendulum of history we have swung back to where in order to not be racist (or, better yet, anti-racist) we have to be actively racist. The zeitgeist is to view everything through the lens of race / skin color ostensibly in an effort to combat racism, but in reality all it does is create more racism. The fact that we have multiple black people commenting here with opinions diverging as widely as they do should be proof positive that race or skin color has almost nothing to do with your opinions. Two people can go through the exact same experience and come out entirely different persons or very similar. Two people can have the same skin color and go through totally different experiences. Two people can have different skin color and go through very similar experiences. Thus when dealing with individuals we should not ascribe to them stereotypes unless we have to make an informed guess, because statistical patterns apply only to groups not individuals. Guessing my race based on my opinion will be left as an exercise for the unconvinced reader ;)
  - jrm4 5y ago
    A little exhausting to, as always, have to thread the needle and calm things down, but let's try again. My insistence on what I said isn't about anything permanent or immutable. This is about what I hope to be a temporary state of affairs, namely that -- it is at least plausible that the lack of black folks in tech today is leading to unintended negative consequences, and perhaps we should talk about that directly without having to worry about the fragile torpedoing the conversation by confusing this hopefully temporary state with some bigger overarching "statement about people." And maybe I didn't quite say this in the exact way that won't set people off the first time, but you know (or should know) that we have to do this A LOT. I was hoping to be able to skip it, but hey, guess not for now.
    - pure_simplicity 5y ago
      No need to calm things down or thread needles, since I am rather stoic. You wanted interaction rather than downvotes, I gave you exactly that, so no need to complain about it being exhausting either. The downvotes may have come from individuals who also think it would be helpful if you treated yourself and others as individuals rather than avatars of their racial collective. Your opinions are your opinions, there is nothing black or white about your opinion (in terms of skin color at least) or anyone else's opinions. There are white people that think like you, and there are black people that think unlike you. Having a certain skin color doesn't make your opinion more valid or more worthy of being listened to either, even if you are in a demographic minority. For your opinion to be valid it has to have merit, so you have to back it up with good arguments that can convince a reasonable person. There's no racial cheat code we can/should insert into public discourse to bypass rational evaluation. That would be the bigotry of low expectations (you can't argue effectively for your case because of your identity, so we're gonna accept your conclusion because of your identity). Shifting from the indefensible: "my opinions are absolutely related to my skin color and that's precisely why you all need to pay special attention to them" to the much milder and very different: "[it's] plausible that the lack of black folks in tech today is leading to unintended negative consequences", and glossing that over as "maybe I didn't quite say this in the exact way that won't set people off the first time", rather than admitting you were racially stereotyping yourself and (at least implicitly) other individuals is poor form. That's not a clarification, but a different argument. I think it's high time white leftists and leftist blacks confront their own racism, cuz that's the only form of socially acceptable racism that currently exists in the west. Having said that, I think there's not much interesting about the hypothetical you raised. Changing the demographic composition of any group of people is almost certainly gonna change the distribution of opinions on the spectrum on any given topic, but that does not mean we are getting closer to truth. In the end, all that should matter is the facts and the arguments. That's why slavery and segregation were abolished at a time when blacks were vastly outnumbered in the population and in politics. We don't need population level representation of blacks in tech (though it may be beneficial) to hold big tech accountable and achieve meaningful change, we just have to make the argument and raise awareness and reasonable people of all races will join in your cause if your argument has merit. Let's get back to MLK's ideal of color blindness, because those who are teaching us to see color are teaching us to hate each other.
nzeribe 5y ago
I find it baffling and dispiriting that you, as a Black person, believe this is more likely to be an "error" than an act of deliberate racism. It's getting silly, now. A white racist programmer has done this on purpose because he finds it hilarious. The chances of a computer equating monkey and man, given the correct datasets, are close to nil. There's a blindness - a wilful ignorance - to look away and show good faith. Why is that?
- jrm4 5y ago
  Yup. Though I would refine it a bit -- it's the "rush to excuse" that's the most dangerous. I don't much worry about the deliberate racist programmer as much as I worry about subconscious deliberate-or-not biases creeping in. This perfectly analogizes to most everywhere else; angry open n-word saying racists are usually powerless losers. More problems come from the larger combination of the rest of the "racism" spectrum, whether apathetic, or racist-but-quiet, or harbors latent biases that they may not know about etc. (And here I do feel like I have to say, the answer isn't "SMOKE THEM OUT AND EXPOSE THEM" on the personal level, it's just taking the utmost care in the work you do)
  - jrm4 5y ago
    And now I'm very curious as to the reasoning behind the downvotes. Again, I'm fine with you disagreeing with me, but I must insist that discussion is more valuable than blind downvotes when you do have the rare occasion of an actual real life black person here giving their opinion.
  - pure_simplicity 5y ago
    In this case, it's not the rush to excuse that is dangerous, it's the rush to accuse that is dangerous. Innocent until proven guilty is a fundamental principle of justice. You have not demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that this is in fact the doing of a racist, so anyone coming up with plausible alternative explanations is only doing so to prevent the discussion from devolving into a witch hunt where the guilt of the accused is simply assumed and our biases and perceptions stand in for evidence. Repeat the witch hunt scenario often enough and eventually you end up with a boy who cried wolf scenario and now you've lost your credibility even in cases where you do have evidence to back up your claims. When people are careless in making accusations that's incredibly damaging to society. You as a black person should know how divisive and damaging false allegations can be, since that was a tool racists used to instill racial hostility in society. Let's not repeat those mistakes. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist or that we shouldn't do anything about it, but knowing in your heart of hearts that this must have been an act of deliberate racism is simply not enough. We need a smoking gun, or else it's best to withhold judgment. The fact that no one thinks the mislabeling by the AI is acceptable should be enough. That shows you that no one would defend a person who deliberately designed this. The 'rush to excuse' is not because society doesn't want to condemn racism, but because most of society still cares about fairness and not making false accusations.

jrm4 5y ago

That first sentence, man. Like, I feel bad second guessing people, in some ways it's not my right -- but it so feels like the kind of "respectability" talk I used to say out of what I thought was "the truth," but now realize it was a sort of habitual way to defuse the room. So I will state clearly -- yes, I am aware my opinions are absolutely related to my skin color and that's precisely why you all need to pay special attention to them. Not because of some sort of silly inherent genetic thing, but because I have experiences that many of you don't.

jrm4 5y ago
Said it before, saying it again. I merely said "pay special attention," not "always 100% agree." You've got two black folks here with differing opinions ostensibly ready to discuss. I have no problem with being disagreed with, but I'm still good suggesting that mere downvoting isn't helping.
pure_simplicity 5y ago
> " I am aware my opinions are absolutely related to my skin color and that's precisely why you all need to pay special attention to them. Not because of some sort of silly inherent genetic thing, but because I have experiences that many of you don't." We used to think of this as racist stereotyping, but in the pendulum of history we have swung back to where in order to not be racist (or, better yet, anti-racist) we have to be actively racist. The zeitgeist is to view everything through the lens of race / skin color ostensibly in an effort to combat racism, but in reality all it does is create more racism. The fact that we have multiple black people commenting here with opinions diverging as widely as they do should be proof positive that race or skin color has almost nothing to do with your opinions. Two people can go through the exact same experience and come out entirely different persons or very similar. Two people can have the same skin color and go through totally different experiences. Two people can have different skin color and go through very similar experiences. Thus when dealing with individuals we should not ascribe to them stereotypes unless we have to make an informed guess, because statistical patterns apply only to groups not individuals. Guessing my race based on my opinion will be left as an exercise for the unconvinced reader ;)
- jrm4 5y ago
  A little exhausting to, as always, have to thread the needle and calm things down, but let's try again. My insistence on what I said isn't about anything permanent or immutable. This is about what I hope to be a temporary state of affairs, namely that -- it is at least plausible that the lack of black folks in tech today is leading to unintended negative consequences, and perhaps we should talk about that directly without having to worry about the fragile torpedoing the conversation by confusing this hopefully temporary state with some bigger overarching "statement about people." And maybe I didn't quite say this in the exact way that won't set people off the first time, but you know (or should know) that we have to do this A LOT. I was hoping to be able to skip it, but hey, guess not for now.
  - pure_simplicity 5y ago
    No need to calm things down or thread needles, since I am rather stoic. You wanted interaction rather than downvotes, I gave you exactly that, so no need to complain about it being exhausting either. The downvotes may have come from individuals who also think it would be helpful if you treated yourself and others as individuals rather than avatars of their racial collective. Your opinions are your opinions, there is nothing black or white about your opinion (in terms of skin color at least) or anyone else's opinions. There are white people that think like you, and there are black people that think unlike you. Having a certain skin color doesn't make your opinion more valid or more worthy of being listened to either, even if you are in a demographic minority. For your opinion to be valid it has to have merit, so you have to back it up with good arguments that can convince a reasonable person. There's no racial cheat code we can/should insert into public discourse to bypass rational evaluation. That would be the bigotry of low expectations (you can't argue effectively for your case because of your identity, so we're gonna accept your conclusion because of your identity). Shifting from the indefensible: "my opinions are absolutely related to my skin color and that's precisely why you all need to pay special attention to them" to the much milder and very different: "[it's] plausible that the lack of black folks in tech today is leading to unintended negative consequences", and glossing that over as "maybe I didn't quite say this in the exact way that won't set people off the first time", rather than admitting you were racially stereotyping yourself and (at least implicitly) other individuals is poor form. That's not a clarification, but a different argument. I think it's high time white leftists and leftist blacks confront their own racism, cuz that's the only form of socially acceptable racism that currently exists in the west. Having said that, I think there's not much interesting about the hypothetical you raised. Changing the demographic composition of any group of people is almost certainly gonna change the distribution of opinions on the spectrum on any given topic, but that does not mean we are getting closer to truth. In the end, all that should matter is the facts and the arguments. That's why slavery and segregation were abolished at a time when blacks were vastly outnumbered in the population and in politics. We don't need population level representation of blacks in tech (though it may be beneficial) to hold big tech accountable and achieve meaningful change, we just have to make the argument and raise awareness and reasonable people of all races will join in your cause if your argument has merit. Let's get back to MLK's ideal of color blindness, because those who are teaching us to see color are teaching us to hate each other.

nzeribe 5y ago

I find it baffling and dispiriting that you, as a Black person, believe this is more likely to be an "error" than an act of deliberate racism. It's getting silly, now. A white racist programmer has done this on purpose because he finds it hilarious. The chances of a computer equating monkey and man, given the correct datasets, are close to nil. There's a blindness - a wilful ignorance - to look away and show good faith. Why is that?

jrm4 5y ago
Yup. Though I would refine it a bit -- it's the "rush to excuse" that's the most dangerous. I don't much worry about the deliberate racist programmer as much as I worry about subconscious deliberate-or-not biases creeping in. This perfectly analogizes to most everywhere else; angry open n-word saying racists are usually powerless losers. More problems come from the larger combination of the rest of the "racism" spectrum, whether apathetic, or racist-but-quiet, or harbors latent biases that they may not know about etc. (And here I do feel like I have to say, the answer isn't "SMOKE THEM OUT AND EXPOSE THEM" on the personal level, it's just taking the utmost care in the work you do)
- jrm4 5y ago
  And now I'm very curious as to the reasoning behind the downvotes. Again, I'm fine with you disagreeing with me, but I must insist that discussion is more valuable than blind downvotes when you do have the rare occasion of an actual real life black person here giving their opinion.
- pure_simplicity 5y ago
  In this case, it's not the rush to excuse that is dangerous, it's the rush to accuse that is dangerous. Innocent until proven guilty is a fundamental principle of justice. You have not demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that this is in fact the doing of a racist, so anyone coming up with plausible alternative explanations is only doing so to prevent the discussion from devolving into a witch hunt where the guilt of the accused is simply assumed and our biases and perceptions stand in for evidence. Repeat the witch hunt scenario often enough and eventually you end up with a boy who cried wolf scenario and now you've lost your credibility even in cases where you do have evidence to back up your claims. When people are careless in making accusations that's incredibly damaging to society. You as a black person should know how divisive and damaging false allegations can be, since that was a tool racists used to instill racial hostility in society. Let's not repeat those mistakes. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist or that we shouldn't do anything about it, but knowing in your heart of hearts that this must have been an act of deliberate racism is simply not enough. We need a smoking gun, or else it's best to withhold judgment. The fact that no one thinks the mislabeling by the AI is acceptable should be enough. That shows you that no one would defend a person who deliberately designed this. The 'rush to excuse' is not because society doesn't want to condemn racism, but because most of society still cares about fairness and not making false accusations.