7 ms·

Nice idea, but I generally was happy if it was only 5 days a week; often I went months with 6 or 7 days. How would you do coding with insane deadlines, insuffic

Nice idea, but I generally was happy if it was only 5 days a week; often I went months with 6 or 7 days. How would you do coding with insane deadlines, insufficient people, terrible management, and constant changes (with no change in dates) in only 4 days?

toomuchtodo 5y ago
You use labor law to disincentivize such behavior by a business. If the business can’t successfully manage and profit with 4 work days per week, creative destruction.
- Sanguinaire 5y ago
  I wish more people were au fait with this concept. If a small business can only exist due to paying bottom-tier wages it is perfectly OK for that business to be squeezed out of existence in short order.
kwhitefoot 5y ago
> How would you do coding with insane deadlines, insufficient people, terrible management, and constant changes (with no change in dates) in only 4 days? - Don't have insane deadlines - have enough people - have better management - forbid changes after the project plan has been approved. I have worked in one company that worked like that, or perhaps it was just one factory in that company. It works at least some of the time, or at least it did at that time (late 70s to early 80s) and place Mullard, Southampton.
SavantIdiot 5y ago
From the article it isn't clear if this is a legal mandate, but perhaps it is not referring to ultra-high-paying jobs that require insane crunch schedules? In the article, it mentions that Microsoft saw a 40% increase in productivity by allowing looser schedules, so perhaps programmers solve problems faster when they aren't staying awake 48 hours a stretch drinking Jolt* and eating pizza three meals a day? * dated myself
- bob229 5y ago
  It’s just the SNP wasting even more money
YZF 5y ago
The problem you're describing is that the business is probably not viable. In some countries what you're describing would be illegal. In others there are sometimes exemptions for tech workers (we should work to cancel those!). It is also doubtful whether such an employer is actually getting any additional productivity out of this practice. On a personal level, the solution is to not work at this place. If that's an option. Some sort of organizing (like the U word) could help create leverage against abusive employers. Consider that the 5 day work week is a relatively recent thing. Not too long ago everyone worked 7 days a week. The world didn't stop spinning when most people shifted to actually working 5 days a week with normal hours. In Canada there is an endless supply of tech jobs that are 5 days a week and 8 hours per day. I am a hiring manager in a company where we care about our employees and pay them well and I can't find enough people. Partly because people prefer to work at places with a terrible work environment for various reasons (looks better on the resume, bragging rights, our work maybe isn't as exciting ...).
- HPsquared 5y ago
  I'd call it a "marginal" business - the kind of thing that would get killed off by this proposal. It's up to the reader to decide if this is good or bad.
- jkepler 5y ago
  Actually, before the modern 5-day week, many Christians, Jews, and Muslims worked 6 days but had off on their respective holy days--- Sunday, Saturday, or Friday. Not sure what historical period you're referring to with broad 7-day work weeks.
  - YZF 5y ago
    I forget where I read this exactly, but while some religious Jewish people would not work on Saturday I don't think this was the rule. Christians seem to have no religious issue that I know of today and plenty of secular Jewish people also still work on the weekend. Anyhow, I can't find the source right now. https://www.pbs.org/livelyhood/workday/weekend/8hourday.html https://www.pbs.org/livelyhood/workday/weekend/8hourday.html "In 1890, when the government first tracked workers' hours, the average workweek for full-time manufacturing employees was 100 hours and 102 hours for building tradesmen." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time "Before collective bargaining and worker protection laws, there was a financial incentive for a company to maximize the return on expensive machinery by having long hours. Records indicate that work schedules as long as twelve to sixteen hours per day, six to seven days per week were practiced in some industrial sites" (citation needed though) https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/ https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/
Sanguinaire 5y ago
In short, more suitable staffing and scoping. Hopefully I don't need to explain the arbitrary nature of the 40-hour week. A lot of people like the idea of flexibility along with these reduced hours, but I'd actually prefer if we went to a uniform 3-day weekend with Friday off. This would have the benefit of aligning the definition of the weekend in the middle East with that in Europe and the US.
zepto 5y ago
Years ago I was doing consulting work for a startup, and was able to negotiate a 4 day week. I worked 2 days at a time with Wednesday off. My next job was as an FTE at another very early stage startup, where we were constantly working and in the office 6 days a week, with some all-nighters before demos etc. I was vastly more productive during the 4 day week period.
- randycupertino 5y ago
  That sounds like a great schedule- you could use Wednesday to do chores and errands, "life stuff" and then actually relax and enjoy the weekends! One of the biggest perks of moving to wfh for me has been the ability to do random household chores on breaks from work during the week and now actually have weekends for relaxing instead of things like laundry and grocery shopping.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Exactly - generally I used Wednesday mornings to do life stuff, and then just unwound and relaxed in the afternoon. I was very energized for Thursday and Friday compared to my colleagues.
oh_sigh 5y ago
Do you run your own business? That's the only way I can understand someone choosing to work 6-7 days/week for months. I'm an employee at a FANG and have been there long enough where I effectively just work 4 day weeks for most of the year by taking Monday's off, and I am literally just as productive as I was when I worked 5 days.
- luckylion 5y ago
  "I don't understand why someone would work 6 or 7 days. I'm rich, my company pays me crazy amounts of money, and I don't work more than 4 days." Guess everyone will have to work on adtech, surveillance and engagement-at-all-costs so they can all have 4-day-weeks and still make 5 times the national average.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    Do you have any insights to OPs situation or are you just ranting?
6510 5y ago
Some laws in NL allow averaging out over a longer period. Its not a real example but say for example you work 3 days on average over a period of 6 months by doing 6 for the first 3 months. Its surprisingly comforting to look forwards to.

toomuchtodo 5y ago

You use labor law to disincentivize such behavior by a business. If the business can’t successfully manage and profit with 4 work days per week, creative destruction.

Sanguinaire 5y ago
I wish more people were au fait with this concept. If a small business can only exist due to paying bottom-tier wages it is perfectly OK for that business to be squeezed out of existence in short order.

kwhitefoot 5y ago

> How would you do coding with insane deadlines, insufficient people, terrible management, and constant changes (with no change in dates) in only 4 days? - Don't have insane deadlines - have enough people - have better management - forbid changes after the project plan has been approved. I have worked in one company that worked like that, or perhaps it was just one factory in that company. It works at least some of the time, or at least it did at that time (late 70s to early 80s) and place Mullard, Southampton.

SavantIdiot 5y ago

From the article it isn't clear if this is a legal mandate, but perhaps it is not referring to ultra-high-paying jobs that require insane crunch schedules? In the article, it mentions that Microsoft saw a 40% increase in productivity by allowing looser schedules, so perhaps programmers solve problems faster when they aren't staying awake 48 hours a stretch drinking Jolt* and eating pizza three meals a day? * dated myself

bob229 5y ago
It’s just the SNP wasting even more money

YZF 5y ago

The problem you're describing is that the business is probably not viable. In some countries what you're describing would be illegal. In others there are sometimes exemptions for tech workers (we should work to cancel those!). It is also doubtful whether such an employer is actually getting any additional productivity out of this practice. On a personal level, the solution is to not work at this place. If that's an option. Some sort of organizing (like the U word) could help create leverage against abusive employers. Consider that the 5 day work week is a relatively recent thing. Not too long ago everyone worked 7 days a week. The world didn't stop spinning when most people shifted to actually working 5 days a week with normal hours. In Canada there is an endless supply of tech jobs that are 5 days a week and 8 hours per day. I am a hiring manager in a company where we care about our employees and pay them well and I can't find enough people. Partly because people prefer to work at places with a terrible work environment for various reasons (looks better on the resume, bragging rights, our work maybe isn't as exciting ...).

HPsquared 5y ago
I'd call it a "marginal" business - the kind of thing that would get killed off by this proposal. It's up to the reader to decide if this is good or bad.
jkepler 5y ago
Actually, before the modern 5-day week, many Christians, Jews, and Muslims worked 6 days but had off on their respective holy days--- Sunday, Saturday, or Friday. Not sure what historical period you're referring to with broad 7-day work weeks.
- YZF 5y ago
  I forget where I read this exactly, but while some religious Jewish people would not work on Saturday I don't think this was the rule. Christians seem to have no religious issue that I know of today and plenty of secular Jewish people also still work on the weekend. Anyhow, I can't find the source right now. https://www.pbs.org/livelyhood/workday/weekend/8hourday.html https://www.pbs.org/livelyhood/workday/weekend/8hourday.html "In 1890, when the government first tracked workers' hours, the average workweek for full-time manufacturing employees was 100 hours and 102 hours for building tradesmen." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time "Before collective bargaining and worker protection laws, there was a financial incentive for a company to maximize the return on expensive machinery by having long hours. Records indicate that work schedules as long as twelve to sixteen hours per day, six to seven days per week were practiced in some industrial sites" (citation needed though) https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/ https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/

Sanguinaire 5y ago

In short, more suitable staffing and scoping. Hopefully I don't need to explain the arbitrary nature of the 40-hour week. A lot of people like the idea of flexibility along with these reduced hours, but I'd actually prefer if we went to a uniform 3-day weekend with Friday off. This would have the benefit of aligning the definition of the weekend in the middle East with that in Europe and the US.

zepto 5y ago

Years ago I was doing consulting work for a startup, and was able to negotiate a 4 day week. I worked 2 days at a time with Wednesday off. My next job was as an FTE at another very early stage startup, where we were constantly working and in the office 6 days a week, with some all-nighters before demos etc. I was vastly more productive during the 4 day week period.

randycupertino 5y ago
That sounds like a great schedule- you could use Wednesday to do chores and errands, "life stuff" and then actually relax and enjoy the weekends! One of the biggest perks of moving to wfh for me has been the ability to do random household chores on breaks from work during the week and now actually have weekends for relaxing instead of things like laundry and grocery shopping.
- zepto 5y ago
  Exactly - generally I used Wednesday mornings to do life stuff, and then just unwound and relaxed in the afternoon. I was very energized for Thursday and Friday compared to my colleagues.

oh_sigh 5y ago

Do you run your own business? That's the only way I can understand someone choosing to work 6-7 days/week for months. I'm an employee at a FANG and have been there long enough where I effectively just work 4 day weeks for most of the year by taking Monday's off, and I am literally just as productive as I was when I worked 5 days.

luckylion 5y ago
"I don't understand why someone would work 6 or 7 days. I'm rich, my company pays me crazy amounts of money, and I don't work more than 4 days." Guess everyone will have to work on adtech, surveillance and engagement-at-all-costs so they can all have 4-day-weeks and still make 5 times the national average.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Do you have any insights to OPs situation or are you just ranting?

6510 5y ago

Some laws in NL allow averaging out over a longer period. Its not a real example but say for example you work 3 days on average over a period of 6 months by doing 6 for the first 3 months. Its surprisingly comforting to look forwards to.