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That was way more interesting than I expected. Apparently, ritual sacrifice of humans in which music is played, probably to drown out the cries of the victims,

That was way more interesting than I expected. Apparently, ritual sacrifice of humans in which music is played, probably to drown out the cries of the victims, goes back millennia to many ancient cultures in every continent that almost certainly had no contact with each other. And the author speculates there is a "Purge" like thing going on with continued violence at rock concerts and violent deaths of musicians themselves bringing a sort of collective catharsis to stave off even worse violence if we didn't let our ya yas out somehow. I was just expecting to hear whoever originally organized this festival watched Wicker Man one too many times or something. But I suppose Wicker Man itself would be a manifestation of this older tradition.

warent 5y ago
I don't get it. What are our ya yas? In what way is injuring or killing a person cathartic?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- fossuser 5y ago
  I agree - I found the writing to be the kind of thing that makes me immediately skeptical. A lot of fanciful connections that seem “smart”, but without much to back it up - it’s possible there’s truth to some of it, but someone could similarly argue a different reason and make it sound just as good. I suspect it’s overconfident in what the causes are and drawing more of a conclusion than what’s there.
- nonameiguess 5y ago
  To be perfectly clear, I am not in any way intending to advocate for the position that we should feel catharsis from injuring or killing people. But it's there. We are all descended from violent predators that got by in the world by killing other animals. A lot of people still do that for sport. Even just with human sport, perhaps you've never played a contact or combat sport where you directly hit other people. Whether or not it's right that it should be this way, I can assure you that it feels really good. I used to be a tank commander, and I guess I was lucky as hell to never have to kill someone myself, but I'll never quite forget my first commander at the armor school who would get us pumped up talking about when he graduated, he'd gone straight to Ramadi to replace a platoon leader who'd just been killed in action and how it made his dick hard to think about blowing up hospitals. The man was an absolute psychopath, but there is no denying a lot of people like that exist. The commander of my lead 2 tank had once shredded a man with a .50 cal from less than a hundred feet away and found it the most addictive thing he'd ever done. As the war started to wind down and normal units no longer got real combat assignments, he was determined to move into the Special Forces to stay in the game. That guy was never going to be normal again. Whether it is sports, actual combat, sexual dominance and sado-masochism, or even just extreme endurance athletes and alpine mountaineers putting their own bodies through hell, pain inflicted on others and pain inflicted on yourself can be quite addictive, and it is definitely better for society if we can find some way to do this ritually rather than by actually starting wars. Ideally not via human sacrifice, but you know, somehow.
  - warent 5y ago
    I played full contact football and never felt anything pleasant from it. Nothing convinced me of what you were talking about except that I'd not considered sadomasochism in this context and now what you're saying makes sense. Sexual sadomasochism is experiencing some kind of torture in a safe, imaginary way. So other ritual violence works in a similar way. That comparison clicks for me. Thanks for the insight.
- fsckboy 5y ago
  this isn't a direct answer to your first question, but the people who go to burning man are probably familiar with the Rolling Stones album entitled "Get Your Ya Ya's Out" and since "ya" is a cry of agreement often used as a cheer, I always assumed it meant "group shout in celebration" and I don't think that's a big stretch as to your second question, humans have innate senses of violence as a reaction to certain stimuli, and also celebrations of victory whether in actual or symbolic combat so... can you seriously not see the emotional catharsis, or are you simply questioning it as being emotional and un-rational? I would add that to me--anthropomorphizing a little, emotions are rational: emotions were discovered by evolution as a good way to regulate behavior, and evolution is actually one of the most logical of processes.
  - nonameiguess 5y ago
    Yeah, I was intentionally invoking the Rolling Stones, since the article mentions the Altamont incident where Meredith Hunter was killed by the Hell's Angels right in front of the stage as one of its examples. Might not be entirely clear to readers who aren't familiar with the Stones' back catalog.
    - fsckboy 5y ago
      just to tune up that sentence a little, Meredith Hunter was killed by a Hell's Angel after he drew a gun. There was beef. The Hell's Angel was tried and acquitted, self-defense.
gremloni 5y ago
I can’t find instances of human sacrifice by burning with loud music on any continent. The only instances of ritual human sacrifice I can find are in the Americas. What’s so cathartic about killing a person? I can understand punishment for doing something society disagrees with or as blood sport for entertainment but what are you talking about?
- irrational 5y ago
  Ritual human sacrifice did occur in places other than the Americas. https://www.asor.org/anetoday/2020/02/human-sacrifice https://www.asor.org/anetoday/2020/02/human-sacrifice
- nonameiguess 5y ago
  Other instances are in this article. It specifically mentions ancient Canaanites doing it and being condemned for it by the Hebrews. It mentions Carthage and the Northern Ewe in Africa. Also claims South India, though whatever specific example the book cites isn't in this article and you'd need to read the book to find out what it is.

warent 5y ago

I don't get it. What are our ya yas? In what way is injuring or killing a person cathartic?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fossuser 5y ago
I agree - I found the writing to be the kind of thing that makes me immediately skeptical. A lot of fanciful connections that seem “smart”, but without much to back it up - it’s possible there’s truth to some of it, but someone could similarly argue a different reason and make it sound just as good. I suspect it’s overconfident in what the causes are and drawing more of a conclusion than what’s there.
nonameiguess 5y ago
To be perfectly clear, I am not in any way intending to advocate for the position that we should feel catharsis from injuring or killing people. But it's there. We are all descended from violent predators that got by in the world by killing other animals. A lot of people still do that for sport. Even just with human sport, perhaps you've never played a contact or combat sport where you directly hit other people. Whether or not it's right that it should be this way, I can assure you that it feels really good. I used to be a tank commander, and I guess I was lucky as hell to never have to kill someone myself, but I'll never quite forget my first commander at the armor school who would get us pumped up talking about when he graduated, he'd gone straight to Ramadi to replace a platoon leader who'd just been killed in action and how it made his dick hard to think about blowing up hospitals. The man was an absolute psychopath, but there is no denying a lot of people like that exist. The commander of my lead 2 tank had once shredded a man with a .50 cal from less than a hundred feet away and found it the most addictive thing he'd ever done. As the war started to wind down and normal units no longer got real combat assignments, he was determined to move into the Special Forces to stay in the game. That guy was never going to be normal again. Whether it is sports, actual combat, sexual dominance and sado-masochism, or even just extreme endurance athletes and alpine mountaineers putting their own bodies through hell, pain inflicted on others and pain inflicted on yourself can be quite addictive, and it is definitely better for society if we can find some way to do this ritually rather than by actually starting wars. Ideally not via human sacrifice, but you know, somehow.
- warent 5y ago
  I played full contact football and never felt anything pleasant from it. Nothing convinced me of what you were talking about except that I'd not considered sadomasochism in this context and now what you're saying makes sense. Sexual sadomasochism is experiencing some kind of torture in a safe, imaginary way. So other ritual violence works in a similar way. That comparison clicks for me. Thanks for the insight.
fsckboy 5y ago
this isn't a direct answer to your first question, but the people who go to burning man are probably familiar with the Rolling Stones album entitled "Get Your Ya Ya's Out" and since "ya" is a cry of agreement often used as a cheer, I always assumed it meant "group shout in celebration" and I don't think that's a big stretch as to your second question, humans have innate senses of violence as a reaction to certain stimuli, and also celebrations of victory whether in actual or symbolic combat so... can you seriously not see the emotional catharsis, or are you simply questioning it as being emotional and un-rational? I would add that to me--anthropomorphizing a little, emotions are rational: emotions were discovered by evolution as a good way to regulate behavior, and evolution is actually one of the most logical of processes.
- nonameiguess 5y ago
  Yeah, I was intentionally invoking the Rolling Stones, since the article mentions the Altamont incident where Meredith Hunter was killed by the Hell's Angels right in front of the stage as one of its examples. Might not be entirely clear to readers who aren't familiar with the Stones' back catalog.
  - fsckboy 5y ago
    just to tune up that sentence a little, Meredith Hunter was killed by a Hell's Angel after he drew a gun. There was beef. The Hell's Angel was tried and acquitted, self-defense.

gremloni 5y ago

I can’t find instances of human sacrifice by burning with loud music on any continent. The only instances of ritual human sacrifice I can find are in the Americas. What’s so cathartic about killing a person? I can understand punishment for doing something society disagrees with or as blood sport for entertainment but what are you talking about?

irrational 5y ago
Ritual human sacrifice did occur in places other than the Americas. https://www.asor.org/anetoday/2020/02/human-sacrifice https://www.asor.org/anetoday/2020/02/human-sacrifice
nonameiguess 5y ago
Other instances are in this article. It specifically mentions ancient Canaanites doing it and being condemned for it by the Hebrews. It mentions Carthage and the Northern Ewe in Africa. Also claims South India, though whatever specific example the book cites isn't in this article and you'd need to read the book to find out what it is.