3 ms·

the core value of libertarianism is that the strong will dominate the weak, meaning a pure libertarian society would feature widespread slavery as a primary fea

by zzzeek 5y ago

the core value of libertarianism is that the strong will dominate the weak, meaning a pure libertarian society would feature widespread slavery as a primary feature.

Dracophoenix 5y ago
Where does domination in your example come from exactly? To dominate requires the initiation of force or coercion. Slavery is a primary feature of a state that violates rights, not one that enshrines them.
- cloudfifty 5y ago
  The only "safe guard" libertarianism brings to the table here is that a person must sign on the dotted line first. Not exactly rock solid when you also allow and encourages the inevitable concentration of wealth through private property at the same time. Private property IS coercion.
  - Dracophoenix 5y ago
    Your safeguard is the choice to act or not act. That's a feature of a free individual. Not a bug. Choices don't become invalid or "wrong" because some people have been wildly successful with theirs while others haven't. What exactly makes wealth such a sticking point in these arguments against libertarianism? It's not considered wrong to be "too" intelligent, or "too" handsome, or "too" strong. But for some reason using these qualities and abilities to obtain money, supposedly in excess of some "moral number" like $1B, results in being "too" wealthy and thus "wrong". Wealth and private property are a representation of value earned through choices made. I would think that one would want more value in his life not less. In a free market, value is generated by choosing to vote with one's dollar, gold bar, or bitcoin. Private property is NOT coercion. Coercion implies you own nothing and owe everything.
    - cloudfifty 5y ago
      An agreement under coercion, direct or indirect, can't be reduced into some intentionally sterile and neutral "choice" without any context. When someone try to do that, it suggests that one is uncomfortable with that fact and prefer to rationalize it.
      - Dracophoenix 5y ago
        Either one has the agency to make and agree to a contract or one does not. There is no in-between. If one holds that every agreement is either directly or indirectly coercive, then we come to the conclusion that no normal human being is ever free. That the only people who truly have choices are clairvoyants and that the rest are as unqualified and naive as children. Obviously, I reject that. While choice is not without context, that context is individually determined by the one's interests and rational faculties. One doesn't know what he doesn't know. However a person still has the freedom to to take a calculated risk if he deems the payoff worth it. That a person doesn't need to know everything to exercise his agency is what demonstrates choice exists and is not simply the rationalization that you claim it is. As far as ownership is concerned, why in your view is that direct or indirect coercion? Why is buying or owning something force?
        cloudfifty 5y ago
        > If one holds that every agreement is either directly or indirectly coercive You've made weird deductions and extrapolated on top of that then you reject that caricature you've created. That has never been stated. It would be helpful if we can try to keep this in plain English. > Either one has the agency to make and agree to a contract or one does not People can have both agency and still use that agency into making an indirectly coerced "choice". The fact remain that it's coerced, and thus not particularly free as in freedom.
        Dracophoenix 5y ago
        Then you're using a convoluted definition of "coercion" How are you defining coercion or assessing its presence in a given agreement? Ignorance? Being in want? Genetic differences? When, in your view, are people not coerced?
kortilla 5y ago
> the core value of libertarianism is that the strong will dominate the weak, meaning a pure libertarian society would feature widespread slavery as a primary feature. No it’s not, it’s freedom from being coerced into doing things. Quite literally the opposite of slavery.
- zzzeek 5y ago
  Who protects that freedom ? Suppose i own the police, because they are of course privatized and owned by unelected entities (me). I can tell them to arrest you or whatever just because I feel like it. Because there is no state providing justice, if you are not yourself powerful or well liked, I don't see where you'd get any recourse. Someone else can easily give you the only choice of indentured servitude for protection and this is not at all a novel pattern in human societies, it goes on all the time.
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    A core weakness in libertarianism is the cornerstone assumption that everyone will play by the rules, and offers no remedy for those that violate those rules. Which pretty much ignores human behavior going through history (and personal experience, for anyone who has had to do a group assignment).
    - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
      Yes. Any time there is a power vacuum, there are strongmen waiting to step in and grab that power. As terrible as democracy is, we haven't yet invented anything better to keep the strongmen at bay. So the libertarians will have to live under the rules that society dictates, and here we are.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    > I can tell them to arrest you or whatever just because I feel like it. No you can’t violate people’s liberty like that. Come on Mike, you’re not that stupid. Don’t attack strawmen.

by zzzeek 5y ago

the core value of libertarianism is that the strong will dominate the weak, meaning a pure libertarian society would feature widespread slavery as a primary feature.

Dracophoenix 5y ago

Where does domination in your example come from exactly? To dominate requires the initiation of force or coercion. Slavery is a primary feature of a state that violates rights, not one that enshrines them.

cloudfifty 5y ago
The only "safe guard" libertarianism brings to the table here is that a person must sign on the dotted line first. Not exactly rock solid when you also allow and encourages the inevitable concentration of wealth through private property at the same time. Private property IS coercion.
- Dracophoenix 5y ago
  Your safeguard is the choice to act or not act. That's a feature of a free individual. Not a bug. Choices don't become invalid or "wrong" because some people have been wildly successful with theirs while others haven't. What exactly makes wealth such a sticking point in these arguments against libertarianism? It's not considered wrong to be "too" intelligent, or "too" handsome, or "too" strong. But for some reason using these qualities and abilities to obtain money, supposedly in excess of some "moral number" like $1B, results in being "too" wealthy and thus "wrong". Wealth and private property are a representation of value earned through choices made. I would think that one would want more value in his life not less. In a free market, value is generated by choosing to vote with one's dollar, gold bar, or bitcoin. Private property is NOT coercion. Coercion implies you own nothing and owe everything.
  - cloudfifty 5y ago
    An agreement under coercion, direct or indirect, can't be reduced into some intentionally sterile and neutral "choice" without any context. When someone try to do that, it suggests that one is uncomfortable with that fact and prefer to rationalize it.
    - Dracophoenix 5y ago
      Either one has the agency to make and agree to a contract or one does not. There is no in-between. If one holds that every agreement is either directly or indirectly coercive, then we come to the conclusion that no normal human being is ever free. That the only people who truly have choices are clairvoyants and that the rest are as unqualified and naive as children. Obviously, I reject that. While choice is not without context, that context is individually determined by the one's interests and rational faculties. One doesn't know what he doesn't know. However a person still has the freedom to to take a calculated risk if he deems the payoff worth it. That a person doesn't need to know everything to exercise his agency is what demonstrates choice exists and is not simply the rationalization that you claim it is. As far as ownership is concerned, why in your view is that direct or indirect coercion? Why is buying or owning something force?
      - cloudfifty 5y ago
        > If one holds that every agreement is either directly or indirectly coercive You've made weird deductions and extrapolated on top of that then you reject that caricature you've created. That has never been stated. It would be helpful if we can try to keep this in plain English. > Either one has the agency to make and agree to a contract or one does not People can have both agency and still use that agency into making an indirectly coerced "choice". The fact remain that it's coerced, and thus not particularly free as in freedom.
        Dracophoenix 5y ago
        Then you're using a convoluted definition of "coercion" How are you defining coercion or assessing its presence in a given agreement? Ignorance? Being in want? Genetic differences? When, in your view, are people not coerced?

kortilla 5y ago

> the core value of libertarianism is that the strong will dominate the weak, meaning a pure libertarian society would feature widespread slavery as a primary feature. No it’s not, it’s freedom from being coerced into doing things. Quite literally the opposite of slavery.

zzzeek 5y ago
Who protects that freedom ? Suppose i own the police, because they are of course privatized and owned by unelected entities (me). I can tell them to arrest you or whatever just because I feel like it. Because there is no state providing justice, if you are not yourself powerful or well liked, I don't see where you'd get any recourse. Someone else can easily give you the only choice of indentured servitude for protection and this is not at all a novel pattern in human societies, it goes on all the time.
- sangnoir 5y ago
  A core weakness in libertarianism is the cornerstone assumption that everyone will play by the rules, and offers no remedy for those that violate those rules. Which pretty much ignores human behavior going through history (and personal experience, for anyone who has had to do a group assignment).
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    Yes. Any time there is a power vacuum, there are strongmen waiting to step in and grab that power. As terrible as democracy is, we haven't yet invented anything better to keep the strongmen at bay. So the libertarians will have to live under the rules that society dictates, and here we are.
- kortilla 5y ago
  > I can tell them to arrest you or whatever just because I feel like it. No you can’t violate people’s liberty like that. Come on Mike, you’re not that stupid. Don’t attack strawmen.