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> Since no amount of contrition abates the condemnation, there is an absence of forgiveness. I agree. Wokism is protestant Christianity without foregivness: ht

> Since no amount of contrition abates the condemnation, there is an absence of forgiveness. I agree. Wokism is protestant Christianity without foregivness: https://pontifex.substack.com/p/no-redemption-for-the-woke https://pontifex.substack.com/p/no-redemption-for-the-woke

thinkingemote 5y ago
Worth also noticing that it comes from the USA where justice is punishment and vindication for the victim. It's why victims and their families are invited to be present when a criminal is killed via the death penalty, and ex cons can't vote. Eye for an eye is very American. Is it old protestant and puritan? Possibly, I'm not sure of the origins. Even the Soviets thoughts that prisoners could be rehabilitated (in principle), and we can consider the Nordic prison model for a more contemporary example. Even English criminology is more about reform than punishment. Often victims feel sidelined because of this. American justice in general doesn't have this sense of rehabilitation being more important than vindication. Justice is retribution by the victim on both right and left wings. I posit that this is why the US is struggling with the "woke", it's because the methods and tactics are seen as normal. Explains a lot about the foreign policy too...
- PontifexMinimus 5y ago
  > Worth also noticing that it comes from the USA where justice is punishment and vindication for the victim. It's why victims and their families are invited to be present when a criminal is killed via the death penalty, and ex cons can't vote. Eye for an eye is very American. I hadn't thought of it from that angle, but it fits.
  - caddemon 5y ago
    Ironically the people I know that are the most extreme on the social justice spectrum are also the most likely to talk about how justice shouldn't be about revenge and we should focus on rehabilitation wherever possible. Which I agree with (although might have a more skeptical take on how often it's possible). But then it's hilarious to see the same people turn around and post in detail about how some case of sexual assault or racism should be punished vindictively. Sometimes I at least understand the urge to be emotional in response to a story, other times the desired punishment seems absurdly disproportionate. Regardless, there is a clear ideological conflict with wanting to rehabilitate murderers!

thinkingemote 5y ago

Worth also noticing that it comes from the USA where justice is punishment and vindication for the victim. It's why victims and their families are invited to be present when a criminal is killed via the death penalty, and ex cons can't vote. Eye for an eye is very American. Is it old protestant and puritan? Possibly, I'm not sure of the origins. Even the Soviets thoughts that prisoners could be rehabilitated (in principle), and we can consider the Nordic prison model for a more contemporary example. Even English criminology is more about reform than punishment. Often victims feel sidelined because of this. American justice in general doesn't have this sense of rehabilitation being more important than vindication. Justice is retribution by the victim on both right and left wings. I posit that this is why the US is struggling with the "woke", it's because the methods and tactics are seen as normal. Explains a lot about the foreign policy too...

PontifexMinimus 5y ago
> Worth also noticing that it comes from the USA where justice is punishment and vindication for the victim. It's why victims and their families are invited to be present when a criminal is killed via the death penalty, and ex cons can't vote. Eye for an eye is very American. I hadn't thought of it from that angle, but it fits.
- caddemon 5y ago
  Ironically the people I know that are the most extreme on the social justice spectrum are also the most likely to talk about how justice shouldn't be about revenge and we should focus on rehabilitation wherever possible. Which I agree with (although might have a more skeptical take on how often it's possible). But then it's hilarious to see the same people turn around and post in detail about how some case of sexual assault or racism should be punished vindictively. Sometimes I at least understand the urge to be emotional in response to a story, other times the desired punishment seems absurdly disproportionate. Regardless, there is a clear ideological conflict with wanting to rehabilitate murderers!