3 ms·

We need to do something big to get rid of old browsers so we can all move forward and start using this stuff. We need real progress. If there were a law that m

We need to do something big to get rid of old browsers so we can all move forward and start using this stuff. We need real progress. If there were a law that mandated upgrading browsers that were out of date (by whatever definition you think works) what would that law look like? How would it work? I ask, because if anyone comes up with something that could work, then we can all start pestering our politicians to put it into action. It might be a complete non starter of an idea, but I'm so tired of seeing all these awesome time saving HTML5 tricks I cant use, it's got to be worth a shot.

michaeldhopkins 15y ago
Probably the FCC would regulate browsers. In addition to wasting developers' time filing reports and talking to government employees, the regulating body would add more restrictions on browsers, possibly even mandating they be used to report undesirable activity. I think it's worse than a non-starter of an idea -- it would slow browser development and turn browsers into weapons against free use of the Internet.
- tomelders 15y ago
  I don't understand how you can make that jump. Its true that a badly thought through law could open the door to that sort of activity, but that's not guaranteed. Also, I see reason to "regulate" browsers. Lets say the law was this.... "A person may not connect to the internet using a browser more than two whole number versions behind the latest production version for that particular browser." Here we have a rule which leaves browser vendors free to pursue whichever route they see fit, with no need to supply any sort of reporting or speaking to government officials. Nor need it be enforced. For example, here in the UK we have laws which ensure web accessibility as part of the Equality Act: http://www.rnib.org.uk/professionals/webaccessibility/lawsandstandards/Pages/uk_law.aspx http://www.rnib.org.uk/professionals/webaccessibility/lawsan... Now this law is not being enforced, but if you work in web design or development in the UK, you have undoubtedly felt it's repercussions as clients demand increasingly higher compliance ratings. This has been unquestionably good for the state of the web, at least here in the UK. Or perhaps there's a national security angle to take, or even an accessibility angle (I believe IE6 and 7 can't increase pixel font sizes). Maybe there's an existing law that is somehow being breached by the mere existence of IE6 & 7.... I suppose what I was asking was "Is there a creative way to mandate modern browsers in law".
  - michaeldhopkins 15y ago
    If you follow US policy regarding the Internet since 9/11, you can should be able to see how browser regulation could be abused or at least slow development with red tape...and you were speculating, so it's okay for me to do that too. If you really meant that Congress or the FCC should make a suggestion to stop using old browsers, that is completely different. It would be followed to the degree that IT departments could afford to upgrade old computers, conduct training and whatnot. It's interesting you mention that UK developers are very compliance-conscious. Perhaps I misunderstand, but every rule that must be complied with increases the development cost of a project, and I believe the reason you want every browser to support IE8 is you want to save development time. If I understand you right, you want to shift your time burden onto browser developers and IT departments, the reverse of the current UK situation you support where the compliance burden is shifted from the IT departments to the web developers!
    - tomelders 15y ago
      I think you're making some huge leaps of imagination there. It seems your starting with the assumption that laws can only introduce red tape and slow things down. While this is certainly possible, it's not inherent. It is absolutely possible to draft rules, or policies in such a way as to reduce red tape. Take for example Van Halen's policy on M&Ms http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/vanhalen.asp http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/vanhalen.asp While not in the political sphere, it demonstrates perfectly how a well thought out policy can reduce complexity while still delivering results. Any attempt to argue that this has no bearing in a political context serves only to illustrate a complete and utter lack of imagination. Once people know the M&M trick, it becomes useless... but M&M's are one example of that technique. Next time, it could be Alphabet Spaghetti with all the A letters removed. Also, what new training would be needed in order to work with modern browsers? People who need training on how to use a modern browser require training of a completely different sort. Since when did "borderline-retarded" become our baseline? Accessibility laws here in the UK have actually made development easier as it has created an environment where developers have a much bigger input in the design process as they can cast an expert eye over concepts and raise concerns at a very early stage. This isn't about removing features, it's about building features that work properly. Nor is it reasonable to class IE8 as a modern browser. IE9 is almost there, but I don't think IE can be classed as "modern" until IE10. Nor do you understand me right. I don't want to shift my time time burden onto anyone, I want to do more in the time I have. IT departments make the call on what browsers their users can use, so it's reasonable to shift some of the support burden onto them. Any talk of "internal systems" that depend on ActiveX and the like demonstrate a lack of investment in technology. Why should we (the human race) be anchored to the past by people who are unwilling to invest in the future, despite reaping the benefits of other peoples investments. It stinks to me. Browsers are free. Modern browsers are easier to support. modern browsers are more secure. Modern browsers increase productivity. Modern browsers have low system requirements. There's no real excuse for not using them. But lets carry on as we are. It's been working crap so far, but let's soldier on at a snails pace. With any luck, we'll be able to stop supporting IE7 sometime around the point we all retire. And heaven forbid we explore any new angles on how to push things forward, even if it's just out of pure interest, because that's wrong... apparently.
jessriedel 15y ago
This frightens me.
notatoad 15y ago
and who is going to implement this law? surprisingly enough, countries outside your own also have the internet. if you want users to drop old browsers, write web apps that require new browsers.
- tomelders 15y ago
  I don't know. How about you make a suggestion? The original comment was about exploring a concept, yet it seems to have been dismissed completely out of hand without even a moments thought. Im genuinely disappointed with the complete lack of imagination.

michaeldhopkins 15y ago

Probably the FCC would regulate browsers. In addition to wasting developers' time filing reports and talking to government employees, the regulating body would add more restrictions on browsers, possibly even mandating they be used to report undesirable activity. I think it's worse than a non-starter of an idea -- it would slow browser development and turn browsers into weapons against free use of the Internet.

tomelders 15y ago
I don't understand how you can make that jump. Its true that a badly thought through law could open the door to that sort of activity, but that's not guaranteed. Also, I see reason to "regulate" browsers. Lets say the law was this.... "A person may not connect to the internet using a browser more than two whole number versions behind the latest production version for that particular browser." Here we have a rule which leaves browser vendors free to pursue whichever route they see fit, with no need to supply any sort of reporting or speaking to government officials. Nor need it be enforced. For example, here in the UK we have laws which ensure web accessibility as part of the Equality Act: http://www.rnib.org.uk/professionals/webaccessibility/lawsandstandards/Pages/uk_law.aspx http://www.rnib.org.uk/professionals/webaccessibility/lawsan... Now this law is not being enforced, but if you work in web design or development in the UK, you have undoubtedly felt it's repercussions as clients demand increasingly higher compliance ratings. This has been unquestionably good for the state of the web, at least here in the UK. Or perhaps there's a national security angle to take, or even an accessibility angle (I believe IE6 and 7 can't increase pixel font sizes). Maybe there's an existing law that is somehow being breached by the mere existence of IE6 & 7.... I suppose what I was asking was "Is there a creative way to mandate modern browsers in law".
- michaeldhopkins 15y ago
  If you follow US policy regarding the Internet since 9/11, you can should be able to see how browser regulation could be abused or at least slow development with red tape...and you were speculating, so it's okay for me to do that too. If you really meant that Congress or the FCC should make a suggestion to stop using old browsers, that is completely different. It would be followed to the degree that IT departments could afford to upgrade old computers, conduct training and whatnot. It's interesting you mention that UK developers are very compliance-conscious. Perhaps I misunderstand, but every rule that must be complied with increases the development cost of a project, and I believe the reason you want every browser to support IE8 is you want to save development time. If I understand you right, you want to shift your time burden onto browser developers and IT departments, the reverse of the current UK situation you support where the compliance burden is shifted from the IT departments to the web developers!
  - tomelders 15y ago
    I think you're making some huge leaps of imagination there. It seems your starting with the assumption that laws can only introduce red tape and slow things down. While this is certainly possible, it's not inherent. It is absolutely possible to draft rules, or policies in such a way as to reduce red tape. Take for example Van Halen's policy on M&Ms http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/vanhalen.asp http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/vanhalen.asp While not in the political sphere, it demonstrates perfectly how a well thought out policy can reduce complexity while still delivering results. Any attempt to argue that this has no bearing in a political context serves only to illustrate a complete and utter lack of imagination. Once people know the M&M trick, it becomes useless... but M&M's are one example of that technique. Next time, it could be Alphabet Spaghetti with all the A letters removed. Also, what new training would be needed in order to work with modern browsers? People who need training on how to use a modern browser require training of a completely different sort. Since when did "borderline-retarded" become our baseline? Accessibility laws here in the UK have actually made development easier as it has created an environment where developers have a much bigger input in the design process as they can cast an expert eye over concepts and raise concerns at a very early stage. This isn't about removing features, it's about building features that work properly. Nor is it reasonable to class IE8 as a modern browser. IE9 is almost there, but I don't think IE can be classed as "modern" until IE10. Nor do you understand me right. I don't want to shift my time time burden onto anyone, I want to do more in the time I have. IT departments make the call on what browsers their users can use, so it's reasonable to shift some of the support burden onto them. Any talk of "internal systems" that depend on ActiveX and the like demonstrate a lack of investment in technology. Why should we (the human race) be anchored to the past by people who are unwilling to invest in the future, despite reaping the benefits of other peoples investments. It stinks to me. Browsers are free. Modern browsers are easier to support. modern browsers are more secure. Modern browsers increase productivity. Modern browsers have low system requirements. There's no real excuse for not using them. But lets carry on as we are. It's been working crap so far, but let's soldier on at a snails pace. With any luck, we'll be able to stop supporting IE7 sometime around the point we all retire. And heaven forbid we explore any new angles on how to push things forward, even if it's just out of pure interest, because that's wrong... apparently.

jessriedel 15y ago

This frightens me.

notatoad 15y ago

and who is going to implement this law? surprisingly enough, countries outside your own also have the internet. if you want users to drop old browsers, write web apps that require new browsers.

tomelders 15y ago
I don't know. How about you make a suggestion? The original comment was about exploring a concept, yet it seems to have been dismissed completely out of hand without even a moments thought. Im genuinely disappointed with the complete lack of imagination.