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What people have so far missed is the nugget burried way down in the small print. Apple are doing this because they have a child porn problem. The biggest sup

What people have so far missed is the nugget burried way down in the small print. Apple are doing this because they have a child porn problem. The biggest suprise of this whole bruhaha is that _facebook_ of all the companies come out looking better than apple. Whatsapp essentially had the same issue: people using it to share nasty stuff. despite similar encryption issues, whatsapp manage to report hundreds of thousands of instances of nasty stuff, without putting in client side filters.

specialist 5y ago
Yes and: > Apple are doing this because they have a child porn problem. They're also under relentless pressure. From governments, who demand backdoors and full access. From hackers, who are pwning the entire stack. Like the EFF, I oppose the image scanning. But I'd like someone, anyone propose what Apple (Google, Facebook, ...) is supposed to do? My hunch is that Apple is trying to thread the needle. Do the absolute bare minimum, to fend off the inevitable governmental policy overreaches. Find some technical solution to mollify all the would be tyrants. If Apple's attempts to find a balance don't work, the default position is backdoors, not Matrix-style end-to-end full encryption. I'm not saying EFF should stfu. EFF and others should be savvy enough to see the meta game and advocate their own policy (platform) accordingly. Edit: u/dhx makes similar points https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28412861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28412861
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  > But I'd like someone, anyone propose what Apple (Google, Facebook, ...) is supposed to do? I think what apple should do is follow Facebook/google's lead: the "report this message" button that _everyone_ else has. Obviously google doesn't encrypt user's stuff, so do server side scanning. Whatsapp supposedly relies entirely on reported messages. Given that iCloud accounts are tied directly to ID, it doesn't seem all that difficult for apple to get their report rate up just by letting users report stuff. > EFF and others should be savvy enough to see the meta game and advocate their own policy (platform) accordingly. agreed, the "EWWW NO NEVER EVER EVER" approach is counter productive, it just allows people to paint them as people that hide kiddyfiddlers. the wider public supports apple's drive a lot more than I would like. But apple do need to do something more, they apparently reported less than a thousand people for having illegal images.
  - robertoandred 5y ago
    How do you propose someone reports a photo someone else has in their personal photo library?
  - yehaaa 5y ago
    Yes but Facebook is a communication plattform, iCloud is a backup and sync feature. Not sure how you think a ”report this message” would work.
    - KaiserPro 5y ago
      iMessage is a communication platform.
      - yehaaa 5y ago
        True, but it’s 1-to-1 like sms. If someone were to send CP to you over iMessage wouldn’t it be more natural to contact the police instead of Apple?
        KaiserPro 5y ago
        > If someone were to send CP to you over iMessage wouldn’t it be more natural to contact the police instead of Apple? probably.
- dhx 5y ago
  It's not a problem that can be realistically solved with technology. The problem existed before electricity had been discovered[1][2] and continues to exist[3] in a significant way regardless of the presence of computers and the Internet. I'd guess that the intent behind client-side scanning is to force child abusers away from mainstream technology towards niche technology[4][5][6], increasing the signal-to-noise ratio for finding and targeting child abusers. At present, there is nothing inherently suspicious about someone using WhatsApp, which means child abusers can hide amongst millions of other users. If CSAM is instead pushed onto Tor and a little-heard-of encrypted messaging app with servers located in eastern Europe, the theory is that it becomes easier to target just these niche users. If they're using Tor, they must have something to hide and therefore further investigation is warranted...? A key problem with this approach is that, as has happened in other criminal circles, criminals find increasingly clever ways to remain 'boring' and not inviting of further scrutiny, or to otherwise remain hidden in the masses. For example, 9/11 hijackers communicated using boring methods, without encryption, using a coded language to make messages appear innocuous[7]. Even if general purpose computing was prohibited, would it be realistic to prevent users from using spreadsheet formulas to implement encryption and display of images[8][9][10], without impacting other users?. Another key problem is that innocent people will likely be targeted and harassed by association with niche technologies, which also wastes resources that could be used to limit child abuse via more effective means. It would be possible to implement something that looks like North Korea's Kwangmyong[11] and largely solve the CSAM-sharing-via-computers problem, but at that point you've essentially banned computing altogether. This is actually a decision some countries have made[12] (not for CSAM reasons though) but good luck convincing the modern world that it'd be a good idea to eradicate the last 40 years of technological advancement whilst other countries continue to leap ahead technologically with the help of open and unrestricted access to general purpose computing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi [3] https://europepmc.org/article/nbk/nbk554624 https://europepmc.org/article/nbk/nbk554624 [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EncroChat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EncroChat [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network) [7] https://hcgroups.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/july-2001-communication-between-ksm-and-bin-al-shibh-intercepted-later-obtained-by-moussaoui-prosecutors/ https://hcgroups.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/july-2001-communic... [8] https://poisonninja.github.io/2016/12/07/AES-in-Google-Sheets/ https://poisonninja.github.io/2016/12/07/AES-in-Google-Sheet... [9] https://www.iacis.org/iis/2017/2_iis_2017_103-112.pdf https://www.iacis.org/iis/2017/2_iis_2017_103-112.pdf [10] https://github.com/takacs/pixel-spreadsheet https://github.com/takacs/pixel-spreadsheet [11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwangmyong_(network) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwangmyong_(network) [12] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Burmese_protests#Internet_blackout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Burmese_protests#Internet...

specialist 5y ago

Yes and: > Apple are doing this because they have a child porn problem. They're also under relentless pressure. From governments, who demand backdoors and full access. From hackers, who are pwning the entire stack. Like the EFF, I oppose the image scanning. But I'd like someone, anyone propose what Apple (Google, Facebook, ...) is supposed to do? My hunch is that Apple is trying to thread the needle. Do the absolute bare minimum, to fend off the inevitable governmental policy overreaches. Find some technical solution to mollify all the would be tyrants. If Apple's attempts to find a balance don't work, the default position is backdoors, not Matrix-style end-to-end full encryption. I'm not saying EFF should stfu. EFF and others should be savvy enough to see the meta game and advocate their own policy (platform) accordingly. Edit: u/dhx makes similar points https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28412861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28412861

KaiserPro 5y ago
> But I'd like someone, anyone propose what Apple (Google, Facebook, ...) is supposed to do? I think what apple should do is follow Facebook/google's lead: the "report this message" button that _everyone_ else has. Obviously google doesn't encrypt user's stuff, so do server side scanning. Whatsapp supposedly relies entirely on reported messages. Given that iCloud accounts are tied directly to ID, it doesn't seem all that difficult for apple to get their report rate up just by letting users report stuff. > EFF and others should be savvy enough to see the meta game and advocate their own policy (platform) accordingly. agreed, the "EWWW NO NEVER EVER EVER" approach is counter productive, it just allows people to paint them as people that hide kiddyfiddlers. the wider public supports apple's drive a lot more than I would like. But apple do need to do something more, they apparently reported less than a thousand people for having illegal images.
- robertoandred 5y ago
  How do you propose someone reports a photo someone else has in their personal photo library?
- yehaaa 5y ago
  Yes but Facebook is a communication plattform, iCloud is a backup and sync feature. Not sure how you think a ”report this message” would work.
  - KaiserPro 5y ago
    iMessage is a communication platform.
    - yehaaa 5y ago
      True, but it’s 1-to-1 like sms. If someone were to send CP to you over iMessage wouldn’t it be more natural to contact the police instead of Apple?
      - KaiserPro 5y ago
        > If someone were to send CP to you over iMessage wouldn’t it be more natural to contact the police instead of Apple? probably.
dhx 5y ago
It's not a problem that can be realistically solved with technology. The problem existed before electricity had been discovered[1][2] and continues to exist[3] in a significant way regardless of the presence of computers and the Internet. I'd guess that the intent behind client-side scanning is to force child abusers away from mainstream technology towards niche technology[4][5][6], increasing the signal-to-noise ratio for finding and targeting child abusers. At present, there is nothing inherently suspicious about someone using WhatsApp, which means child abusers can hide amongst millions of other users. If CSAM is instead pushed onto Tor and a little-heard-of encrypted messaging app with servers located in eastern Europe, the theory is that it becomes easier to target just these niche users. If they're using Tor, they must have something to hide and therefore further investigation is warranted...? A key problem with this approach is that, as has happened in other criminal circles, criminals find increasingly clever ways to remain 'boring' and not inviting of further scrutiny, or to otherwise remain hidden in the masses. For example, 9/11 hijackers communicated using boring methods, without encryption, using a coded language to make messages appear innocuous[7]. Even if general purpose computing was prohibited, would it be realistic to prevent users from using spreadsheet formulas to implement encryption and display of images[8][9][10], without impacting other users?. Another key problem is that innocent people will likely be targeted and harassed by association with niche technologies, which also wastes resources that could be used to limit child abuse via more effective means. It would be possible to implement something that looks like North Korea's Kwangmyong[11] and largely solve the CSAM-sharing-via-computers problem, but at that point you've essentially banned computing altogether. This is actually a decision some countries have made[12] (not for CSAM reasons though) but good luck convincing the modern world that it'd be a good idea to eradicate the last 40 years of technological advancement whilst other countries continue to leap ahead technologically with the help of open and unrestricted access to general purpose computing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi [3] https://europepmc.org/article/nbk/nbk554624 https://europepmc.org/article/nbk/nbk554624 [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EncroChat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EncroChat [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network) [7] https://hcgroups.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/july-2001-communication-between-ksm-and-bin-al-shibh-intercepted-later-obtained-by-moussaoui-prosecutors/ https://hcgroups.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/july-2001-communic... [8] https://poisonninja.github.io/2016/12/07/AES-in-Google-Sheets/ https://poisonninja.github.io/2016/12/07/AES-in-Google-Sheet... [9] https://www.iacis.org/iis/2017/2_iis_2017_103-112.pdf https://www.iacis.org/iis/2017/2_iis_2017_103-112.pdf [10] https://github.com/takacs/pixel-spreadsheet https://github.com/takacs/pixel-spreadsheet [11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwangmyong_(network) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwangmyong_(network) [12] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Burmese_protests#Internet_blackout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Burmese_protests#Internet...