4 ms·

Do you not think there is a difference between 'you should follow my religion' and e.g. 'you should use neutral pronouns to make other people more comfortable?'

by thurn 5y ago

Do you not think there is a difference between 'you should follow my religion' and e.g. 'you should use neutral pronouns to make other people more comfortable?' The later isn't about some fundamental belief, it's really just an extension of a concept that has existed for thousands of years -- politeness

cblconfederate 5y ago
Yes, the difference is the second question is a loaded question, it has already moved the definition of "politeness" to exclude people who don't answer "yes" to that question. IMHO, it is a more sneaky question than some religious preacher who can easily take "no" for an answer
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> The later isn't about some fundamental belief, it's really just an extension of a concept that has existed for thousands of years -- politeness No, it actually is a new, fundamental belief: The belief that it’s okay to assume the worst intent unless others go out of their way to follow all of the correct wokeness rules. Ironically, assuming the worst intent in cases of ambiguity is quite the opposite of politeness. For what it’s worth, I’ve made a best effort to use neutral pronouns in my own writing. However, when I read someone else’s writings that use “his” or “her” in a generic statement, I don’t assume the author is being sexist, misogynistic, or impolite. I assume the author was simply making a generic statement. That’s the difference with the new woke movement: It has been misused and abused as an excuse to assume ill intent in others unless they know and follow all of the right rules.
fallingknife 5y ago
Since when did "politeness" mean you have to do what other people tell you? If English people demanded that we spell color like "colour" because seeing it without the u made them uncomfortable, the correct response would be to tell them to fuck off. I don't see why it's any different with people demanding their own pronouns
- ModernMech 5y ago
  Because when a specific person asks you to refer to them in a particular way, it’s polite to acquiesce. When you call someone something they don’t like, they will respond by not liking you. If someone asks you to refer to them as “they”, and you tell them to “fuck off”, you’re not going to have a good relationship with that person.
  - fallingknife 5y ago
    Yes, if someone asked me to refer to them as "your royal highness," I'm sure they will not like me if I don't. But generally I don't care if people who go around making demands for special treatment like me or not. This is what the pronoun people do. They end up not well liked because of their attention seeking demands, and then when they notice that no one likes them, they blame it on "bigotry."
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      People aren't asking you to call them "your royal highness" though. It's typically "he", "she", or "they" 99% of the time, words you already use to refer to people. People are just giving you the right mapping rather than hoping your heuristics get it right. I appreciate this especially in situations when my heuristics fail, and if you meet enough people they fail often enough to create noticeable social friction. As the world becomes more interconnected, this friction is appreciable, and can be alleviated easily by just adding pronouns to the formalities of introducing one's self. When we meet, I already tell you my name. You tell me yours, and I wouldn't presume to just call you whatever I want. It would signal I don't appreciate you or consider you worthy of remembering. The same is true for pronouns. If I tell you I want to be called "they" and you decide you'd rather call me "she", it's the same level of indifference as if I tell you my name is "Sue" and you insist on calling me "Sam." They aren't asking for special treatment either -- I think everyone in your life appreciates that you refer to them using their personally preferred gender pronouns, rather than ones you might prefer for arbitrary reasons. Go ahead and switch around the pronouns you use with people in your life, and see how those people react. Trans people and non binary people are just asking you to use the pronouns they prefer, the same as everyone asks and expects.

by thurn 5y ago

cblconfederate 5y ago

Yes, the difference is the second question is a loaded question, it has already moved the definition of "politeness" to exclude people who don't answer "yes" to that question. IMHO, it is a more sneaky question than some religious preacher who can easily take "no" for an answer

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> The later isn't about some fundamental belief, it's really just an extension of a concept that has existed for thousands of years -- politeness No, it actually is a new, fundamental belief: The belief that it’s okay to assume the worst intent unless others go out of their way to follow all of the correct wokeness rules. Ironically, assuming the worst intent in cases of ambiguity is quite the opposite of politeness. For what it’s worth, I’ve made a best effort to use neutral pronouns in my own writing. However, when I read someone else’s writings that use “his” or “her” in a generic statement, I don’t assume the author is being sexist, misogynistic, or impolite. I assume the author was simply making a generic statement. That’s the difference with the new woke movement: It has been misused and abused as an excuse to assume ill intent in others unless they know and follow all of the right rules.

fallingknife 5y ago

Since when did "politeness" mean you have to do what other people tell you? If English people demanded that we spell color like "colour" because seeing it without the u made them uncomfortable, the correct response would be to tell them to fuck off. I don't see why it's any different with people demanding their own pronouns

ModernMech 5y ago
Because when a specific person asks you to refer to them in a particular way, it’s polite to acquiesce. When you call someone something they don’t like, they will respond by not liking you. If someone asks you to refer to them as “they”, and you tell them to “fuck off”, you’re not going to have a good relationship with that person.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  Yes, if someone asked me to refer to them as "your royal highness," I'm sure they will not like me if I don't. But generally I don't care if people who go around making demands for special treatment like me or not. This is what the pronoun people do. They end up not well liked because of their attention seeking demands, and then when they notice that no one likes them, they blame it on "bigotry."
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    People aren't asking you to call them "your royal highness" though. It's typically "he", "she", or "they" 99% of the time, words you already use to refer to people. People are just giving you the right mapping rather than hoping your heuristics get it right. I appreciate this especially in situations when my heuristics fail, and if you meet enough people they fail often enough to create noticeable social friction. As the world becomes more interconnected, this friction is appreciable, and can be alleviated easily by just adding pronouns to the formalities of introducing one's self. When we meet, I already tell you my name. You tell me yours, and I wouldn't presume to just call you whatever I want. It would signal I don't appreciate you or consider you worthy of remembering. The same is true for pronouns. If I tell you I want to be called "they" and you decide you'd rather call me "she", it's the same level of indifference as if I tell you my name is "Sue" and you insist on calling me "Sam." They aren't asking for special treatment either -- I think everyone in your life appreciates that you refer to them using their personally preferred gender pronouns, rather than ones you might prefer for arbitrary reasons. Go ahead and switch around the pronouns you use with people in your life, and see how those people react. Trans people and non binary people are just asking you to use the pronouns they prefer, the same as everyone asks and expects.