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Under the woke philosophy the criterion for deserving forgiveness still exists but is changed. In classical Christian philosophy, forgiveness requires contritio

Under the woke philosophy the criterion for deserving forgiveness still exists but is changed. In classical Christian philosophy, forgiveness requires contrition whereas under woke philosophy forgiveness requires powerlessness. This is often misinterpreted as an absence of forgiveness because no amount of contrition seems to abate the condemnation.

darkerside 5y ago
Not sure who downvoted you, but I found this to be an incredibly insightful comment. Possibly one that conservative (anti-woke) voices might benefit from hearing. Not that it seems like you were taking a side here.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
GavinMcG 5y ago
I think you're redefining things. Since no amount of contrition abates the condemnation, there is an absence of forgiveness. Powerlessness doesn't abate the condemnation either, after all. Instead, these people who refuse to forgive do so because they feel that forgiveness has been used to excuse abuse (read broadly) and to keep abusers in power. In other words, it's all about power, and forgiveness just doesn't feature.
- PontifexMinimus 5y ago
  > Since no amount of contrition abates the condemnation, there is an absence of forgiveness. I agree. Wokism is protestant Christianity without foregivness: https://pontifex.substack.com/p/no-redemption-for-the-woke https://pontifex.substack.com/p/no-redemption-for-the-woke
  - thinkingemote 5y ago
    Worth also noticing that it comes from the USA where justice is punishment and vindication for the victim. It's why victims and their families are invited to be present when a criminal is killed via the death penalty, and ex cons can't vote. Eye for an eye is very American. Is it old protestant and puritan? Possibly, I'm not sure of the origins. Even the Soviets thoughts that prisoners could be rehabilitated (in principle), and we can consider the Nordic prison model for a more contemporary example. Even English criminology is more about reform than punishment. Often victims feel sidelined because of this. American justice in general doesn't have this sense of rehabilitation being more important than vindication. Justice is retribution by the victim on both right and left wings. I posit that this is why the US is struggling with the "woke", it's because the methods and tactics are seen as normal. Explains a lot about the foreign policy too...
    - PontifexMinimus 5y ago
      > Worth also noticing that it comes from the USA where justice is punishment and vindication for the victim. It's why victims and their families are invited to be present when a criminal is killed via the death penalty, and ex cons can't vote. Eye for an eye is very American. I hadn't thought of it from that angle, but it fits.
      - caddemon 5y ago
        Ironically the people I know that are the most extreme on the social justice spectrum are also the most likely to talk about how justice shouldn't be about revenge and we should focus on rehabilitation wherever possible. Which I agree with (although might have a more skeptical take on how often it's possible). But then it's hilarious to see the same people turn around and post in detail about how some case of sexual assault or racism should be punished vindictively. Sometimes I at least understand the urge to be emotional in response to a story, other times the desired punishment seems absurdly disproportionate. Regardless, there is a clear ideological conflict with wanting to rehabilitate murderers!
- darkerside 5y ago
  > Powerlessness doesn't abate the condemnation either, after all. It does when the current majority no longer has a systemic advantage. Essentially it's saying, I don't want you to say you're sorry, I want things to change. In a world where nobody feels like they have enough, I don't blame white individuals for being upset by the claim that they are privileged. And I don't think the answer is to take away all advantages from anybody because that's a race to the bottom. But, I do understand how a black American might eventually get frustrated when people display contrition over, for example, police brutality, but it continues to happen disproportionately.
foolinaround 5y ago
In classical Judeo-Christian philosophy, there is one law for all - regardless of whether the person is poor or rich, and other classifications. Also, there existed this concept of a re-do -- as in a 'jubilee' - land is returned - and 7 years where the debts are reset etc ( the original of current laws limiting bankruptcies to 7 yrs ). No one in a biblical scenario remained poor because their ancestors slacked off. Now that those are not in play, one sees a class of people condemned to remain low with no ways of rising up. While there is progress being made to alleviate these conditions, it is not fast enough. These group ( poor socio-economic) train their guns against the rich. The rich being smart, use their puppets like the media, etc to create fake outrage - propping up 2 parties which essentially are the same thing with minor differences, drumming up differences based on race, creating new controversies with gender etc.
octonion 5y ago
Under American society it had been deemed adequate to feign contrition to maintain the entrenched power structure, while continuing to engage in the same terrible behavior as before. That's no longer being tolerated.
swayvil 5y ago
Thus the power of the victim. So many arguments start with a declaration of victimhood. So many arguments over who is the greatest victim. Greatest victim = greatest authority. And so it follows that "suffering" carries the greatest epistemological weight. Which sounds kinda awful on the face of it.
spangry 5y ago
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding this. What you you mean by 'requires powerlessness'? If I commit a sin against wokeness, how do I demonstrate powerlessness in order to gain forgiveness?
- rdtwo 5y ago
  Change your gender
- darkerside 5y ago
  That's exactly it. You don't "demonstrate" powerlessness. The woke left will only be happy when there is actual change and the systematic advantage for the current majority is removed. Which of course will not happen, and even if it did, would result in other unfairnesses and in fact already has. Nobody will ever be satisfied because the fairer things are, the fairer they will need to be. Still, I understand better now how empty words will do little to soften woke hearts.

darkerside 5y ago

Not sure who downvoted you, but I found this to be an incredibly insightful comment. Possibly one that conservative (anti-woke) voices might benefit from hearing. Not that it seems like you were taking a side here.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

GavinMcG 5y ago

I think you're redefining things. Since no amount of contrition abates the condemnation, there is an absence of forgiveness. Powerlessness doesn't abate the condemnation either, after all. Instead, these people who refuse to forgive do so because they feel that forgiveness has been used to excuse abuse (read broadly) and to keep abusers in power. In other words, it's all about power, and forgiveness just doesn't feature.

PontifexMinimus 5y ago
> Since no amount of contrition abates the condemnation, there is an absence of forgiveness. I agree. Wokism is protestant Christianity without foregivness: https://pontifex.substack.com/p/no-redemption-for-the-woke https://pontifex.substack.com/p/no-redemption-for-the-woke
- thinkingemote 5y ago
  Worth also noticing that it comes from the USA where justice is punishment and vindication for the victim. It's why victims and their families are invited to be present when a criminal is killed via the death penalty, and ex cons can't vote. Eye for an eye is very American. Is it old protestant and puritan? Possibly, I'm not sure of the origins. Even the Soviets thoughts that prisoners could be rehabilitated (in principle), and we can consider the Nordic prison model for a more contemporary example. Even English criminology is more about reform than punishment. Often victims feel sidelined because of this. American justice in general doesn't have this sense of rehabilitation being more important than vindication. Justice is retribution by the victim on both right and left wings. I posit that this is why the US is struggling with the "woke", it's because the methods and tactics are seen as normal. Explains a lot about the foreign policy too...
  - PontifexMinimus 5y ago
    > Worth also noticing that it comes from the USA where justice is punishment and vindication for the victim. It's why victims and their families are invited to be present when a criminal is killed via the death penalty, and ex cons can't vote. Eye for an eye is very American. I hadn't thought of it from that angle, but it fits.
    - caddemon 5y ago
      Ironically the people I know that are the most extreme on the social justice spectrum are also the most likely to talk about how justice shouldn't be about revenge and we should focus on rehabilitation wherever possible. Which I agree with (although might have a more skeptical take on how often it's possible). But then it's hilarious to see the same people turn around and post in detail about how some case of sexual assault or racism should be punished vindictively. Sometimes I at least understand the urge to be emotional in response to a story, other times the desired punishment seems absurdly disproportionate. Regardless, there is a clear ideological conflict with wanting to rehabilitate murderers!
darkerside 5y ago
> Powerlessness doesn't abate the condemnation either, after all. It does when the current majority no longer has a systemic advantage. Essentially it's saying, I don't want you to say you're sorry, I want things to change. In a world where nobody feels like they have enough, I don't blame white individuals for being upset by the claim that they are privileged. And I don't think the answer is to take away all advantages from anybody because that's a race to the bottom. But, I do understand how a black American might eventually get frustrated when people display contrition over, for example, police brutality, but it continues to happen disproportionately.

foolinaround 5y ago

In classical Judeo-Christian philosophy, there is one law for all - regardless of whether the person is poor or rich, and other classifications. Also, there existed this concept of a re-do -- as in a 'jubilee' - land is returned - and 7 years where the debts are reset etc ( the original of current laws limiting bankruptcies to 7 yrs ). No one in a biblical scenario remained poor because their ancestors slacked off. Now that those are not in play, one sees a class of people condemned to remain low with no ways of rising up. While there is progress being made to alleviate these conditions, it is not fast enough. These group ( poor socio-economic) train their guns against the rich. The rich being smart, use their puppets like the media, etc to create fake outrage - propping up 2 parties which essentially are the same thing with minor differences, drumming up differences based on race, creating new controversies with gender etc.

octonion 5y ago

Under American society it had been deemed adequate to feign contrition to maintain the entrenched power structure, while continuing to engage in the same terrible behavior as before. That's no longer being tolerated.

swayvil 5y ago

Thus the power of the victim. So many arguments start with a declaration of victimhood. So many arguments over who is the greatest victim. Greatest victim = greatest authority. And so it follows that "suffering" carries the greatest epistemological weight. Which sounds kinda awful on the face of it.

spangry 5y ago

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding this. What you you mean by 'requires powerlessness'? If I commit a sin against wokeness, how do I demonstrate powerlessness in order to gain forgiveness?

rdtwo 5y ago
Change your gender
darkerside 5y ago
That's exactly it. You don't "demonstrate" powerlessness. The woke left will only be happy when there is actual change and the systematic advantage for the current majority is removed. Which of course will not happen, and even if it did, would result in other unfairnesses and in fact already has. Nobody will ever be satisfied because the fairer things are, the fairer they will need to be. Still, I understand better now how empty words will do little to soften woke hearts.