5 ms·

Ask HN: Dear Non-tech founders, how do you build MVPs?

29 points by wannapreneur 5y ago

Which one is easy? 1. Would you find a tech co-founder and ask him to code? 2. Would you use a No-code platform to build? 3. Would you outsource to a development team?

neximo64 5y ago
In order: 3 if your background is sales. 2. no 1. otherwise
psikomanjak 5y ago
Hi, we are a development team with a broad experience in building MVPs. If you are interested you can reach out through my email on my profile page.
f0e4c2f7 5y ago
One option you might consider is learning to code yourself. I understand you may not have the time or desire to but if you did it would be much cheaper (and possibly faster. It's hard to hire devs right now, especially good ones) As a founder you'll also have to give up coding eventually, so it's not like you have to become a shaolin master. Just good enough to make an MVP+
PaulHoule 5y ago
Depends on what it is.
da39a3ee 5y ago
I understand that English may be your second language, but note that you are using a male pronoun (“him”), whereas presumably you would consider female technical cofounders. You could write that as “ask them to code”. If it’s a web site you could make a start creating wireframes with balsamiq or mockups with figma.
- da39a3ee 5y ago
  Could I please ask for some explanation of the multiple downvotes I've received here? I note the following: 1. I made my point politely, and constructively. 2. I did also offer an answer. 3. My point was not related to "preferred pronouns" or even "political correctness". It's simply a violation of basic avoidance-of-sexism principles to use a male pronoun in this situation, when a technical cofounder may be any gender. (It hasn't been acceptable to do that for several decades.)
  - Zababa 5y ago
    > (It hasn't been acceptable to do that for several decades.) Really? Gender neutral text is something recent for me, I'd say in the last 10 years. And most of what you can find around still use most of the time males as examples, as a default, etc. I'll add that "avoidance-of-sexism" could be seen as political correctness depending on who you're talking about. I agree with the idea of gender-neutral text in general though.
    - da39a3ee 5y ago
      In the culture's that I'm familiar (western anglophone) it's entirely unacceptable to use the word "him" for a putative technical cofounder that does not exist. I've flagged this thread to give the moderators an opportunity to consider this data point; HN is a great community but I think that it is numerically male-dominated. That of course needn't necessarily translate into cultural problems but I am disappointed by the behavior of thread participants here.
      - Zababa 5y ago
        "entirely unacceptable" sounds very strong to me. The Wikipedia page on gender-neutral language has a point on avoiding "him" and the reference dates back from 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_language. But nothing on that page suggests something as strong as what you say. Same thing with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_English#Pronouns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_English#P.... The page suggests that there is an ongoing debate, but no answer is accepted by everyone. Perhaps your social circles don't reflect the whole western anglophone sphere? Considering all of that, you unnecessarily said that English may not be the author's primary language, implying that their usage of "him" was only rooted in ignorance and couldn't be a deliberate choice. You said that you made your point "politely", but that isn't the case. I don't know if you acted in bad faith or in ignorance, but in both cases, you should try to be a bit more nice and open about how you approach people here. I don't really get what you're trying to say with "I've flagged this thread to give the moderators an opportunity to consider this data point; HN is a great community but I think that it is numerically male-dominated. That of course needn't necessarily translate into cultural problems but I am disappointed by the behavior of thread participants here.". Are you disappointed because you got downvoted without any explanation? Or that people don't react as much as they should to the "him"? Or something else?
hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
What "No-code" platform? It makes no sense at all! First, you're extremely limited in what you can do. Second, in all these limitations, you are completely dependent on what someone else decides to create for you (or not). Just forget it. It all depends on what you want to create. If your idea is relatively simple, like CRUD-based, you will do yourself a favor by trying to implement it yourself in something like Laravel or Django. These projects have huge communities with tons of modules. You don't have to be that "technical" to use them. Creating an MVP will give you a rough idea of the level of complexity and effort needed, and this will help you to make a decision about the actual implementation. Besides, an experience you get while working on this MVP will make your next projects much easier. You will also understand your coding colleagues better and it will be difficult for you to be ripped off when outsourcing to another team.
mchusma 5y ago
Honestly here is what I would recommend: 1) if your app is more of an "app" - use a low code platform like bubble to develop the app. This will help you learn technical concepts and work out some of your idea. 2) if your idea is more "content based" (like blog or directory with filters), use Webflow 3) if your idea is a game, learn unity or unreal. You basically have to become much more technical to be helpful to your startup at the beginning. I think "learning to code" is a good answer, but realistically if you want to sort of figure things out in the next 1-2 years, these other approaches are the best ones to work. I also think you will have a dramatically easier time getting a technical co founder of you have a prototype, can share your vision, and also be a better product manager. It's very hard for completely non technical people to contribute to technical development.
- slake 5y ago
  'Be a better product manager' is key here. I would say if non-tech people have to learn one skill to manage a tech company it's learn product management. Then in my opinion any of the approaches will work. Your clarity of thought and features and roadmap and scope is the most critical to building a good product. Very, very rarely can you outsource that.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
atatatat 5y ago
Why do you want the easy option instead of the correct option considering long-term...which people here can provide you insight toward?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
redsymbol 5y ago
"Which one is easy?" None of them. I am sure you are an industrious hard worker. And to do this successfully, you need to expand your determination, resourcefulness, and sheer visceral grit far beyond what you have ever done before. It is not easy. AND, you can do it, if you decide to. Allow me to advise you: for each of these three options, write out all steps in the process of building an MVP through that method. As much detail as you can. Get to the point where you can imagine being successful using ANY of them. Then you will have clarity to choose. And then: follow it to the end, regardless of what it asks of you. Then you will change your HN username. You will see yourself as a true entrepreneur; not because you want to be one, but because you KNOW you are. Best of luck building your MVP. Keep at it, and you will be successful. (Source: I am an entrepreneur who bootstrapped my company to 6-figs revenue while retaining 100% equity, expecting to break 7-figs in 2022, and believe I will reach 8 figs by 2023 or earlier.)
- codegeek 5y ago
  "expecting to break 7-figs in 2022, and believe I will reach 8 figs by 2023 or earlier" That will be something and would love to learn why/how you think you can achieve that being bootstrapped. Going from 1M to 10M in 1 year being bootstrapped has to be something special. Not doubting but just wondering how you believe you can achieve this without funding/extra money ?
  - redsymbol 5y ago
    Different business models have different capitalization requirements; some (e.g. a grocery store chain) are nearly impossible to rapidly scale without massive outside investment. If a business model has (a) a high enough gross margin, and (b) good-enough intrinsic economies of scale, then by the time it reaches several $100k in revenue, there is a good chance it will be crystal clear how to scale up 7 and then 8 figures. And you will be sitting on a big enough pile of cash that there is no need to take outside funding to implement that. Many B2B SaaS business models in particular can find themselves in this excellent situation. You can still take outside funding; after all, a growing business at that point is attractive to outside investors. But then it becomes a choice about growth rate in exchange for keeping equity and strategic control. I decided in my case it was completely unnecessary, so I am not doing it.
birbs 5y ago
I would focus on what you bring to the table. If you’re able to drive sales for this idea, or come up with a compelling marketing plan to drive user acquisition, then you should have no trouble finding someone to make the app for you.
tchock23 5y ago
Depends on the scope of your MVP, but nowadays I would start in Bubble.io if it’s a web app or Adalo if going native. Use the prototype you create there for validation and early traction, and then consider bringing that to a tech co-founder. It’s far easier to find a tech co-founder if you have shown the initiative to build a prototype and have early traction. Note that none of your options are ‘easy’ per se - all three entail a lot of work…
aeoleonn 5y ago
I had the same question. So I learned to develop web apps. Now I realize I wouldn't want a non-tech co-founder unless they have significant business experience.
dustymcp 5y ago
Would learn enough to code my mvp, getting a co-founder with tech experience is very tough if you have no leverage or ideas scratched out already. No code is a way to achieve this but again i would recommend being a part of the process.
pyromaker 5y ago
I use Newsy to test things out initially. Newsy (https://www.newsy.co https://www.newsy.co) is a tool that converts a domain name into a content-aggregator (i.e. Reddit clone). Here's what I've been doing. 1. I have an idea for an app. I buy a domain name. 2. Usually, I don't have much time to develop the domain. And while I'm doing all the market research, I plug my domain to Newsy. Newsy asks me to fill in some niche keywords which are related to my idea or startup I'm thinking of. So I type in "workout", "weight training", "workout training exercises". 3. Newsy will automatically find contents and create it (here's an example - security related - https://www.getinfosec.news https://www.getinfosec.news) 4. It comes with sitemap, newsletter, Twitter integration to regularly post tweets. I also let a few of my colleagues know. Over the next few weeks, it builds traffic. It even gets some people sign up as a newsletter subscriber or member on my Newsy site. Sometimes, I post links on Reddit just to kickstart some traffic driving to my site. It works from time to time. 5. I let it run for about 2-3 months. By this time, I have ~30-50 users signed up with real email address. Now I can actually start emailing these users to find out more about the problem space that I want to solve. Above process has been super interesting - if anything other than to make sure my newly bought domain is being used, not just sitting there idle. Hope that helps someone.

29 points by wannapreneur 5y ago

Which one is easy? 1. Would you find a tech co-founder and ask him to code? 2. Would you use a No-code platform to build? 3. Would you outsource to a development team?

neximo64 5y ago

In order: 3 if your background is sales. 2. no 1. otherwise

psikomanjak 5y ago

Hi, we are a development team with a broad experience in building MVPs. If you are interested you can reach out through my email on my profile page.

f0e4c2f7 5y ago

One option you might consider is learning to code yourself. I understand you may not have the time or desire to but if you did it would be much cheaper (and possibly faster. It's hard to hire devs right now, especially good ones) As a founder you'll also have to give up coding eventually, so it's not like you have to become a shaolin master. Just good enough to make an MVP+

PaulHoule 5y ago

Depends on what it is.

da39a3ee 5y ago

I understand that English may be your second language, but note that you are using a male pronoun (“him”), whereas presumably you would consider female technical cofounders. You could write that as “ask them to code”. If it’s a web site you could make a start creating wireframes with balsamiq or mockups with figma.

da39a3ee 5y ago
Could I please ask for some explanation of the multiple downvotes I've received here? I note the following: 1. I made my point politely, and constructively. 2. I did also offer an answer. 3. My point was not related to "preferred pronouns" or even "political correctness". It's simply a violation of basic avoidance-of-sexism principles to use a male pronoun in this situation, when a technical cofounder may be any gender. (It hasn't been acceptable to do that for several decades.)
- Zababa 5y ago
  > (It hasn't been acceptable to do that for several decades.) Really? Gender neutral text is something recent for me, I'd say in the last 10 years. And most of what you can find around still use most of the time males as examples, as a default, etc. I'll add that "avoidance-of-sexism" could be seen as political correctness depending on who you're talking about. I agree with the idea of gender-neutral text in general though.
  - da39a3ee 5y ago
    In the culture's that I'm familiar (western anglophone) it's entirely unacceptable to use the word "him" for a putative technical cofounder that does not exist. I've flagged this thread to give the moderators an opportunity to consider this data point; HN is a great community but I think that it is numerically male-dominated. That of course needn't necessarily translate into cultural problems but I am disappointed by the behavior of thread participants here.
    - Zababa 5y ago
      "entirely unacceptable" sounds very strong to me. The Wikipedia page on gender-neutral language has a point on avoiding "him" and the reference dates back from 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_language. But nothing on that page suggests something as strong as what you say. Same thing with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_English#Pronouns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_English#P.... The page suggests that there is an ongoing debate, but no answer is accepted by everyone. Perhaps your social circles don't reflect the whole western anglophone sphere? Considering all of that, you unnecessarily said that English may not be the author's primary language, implying that their usage of "him" was only rooted in ignorance and couldn't be a deliberate choice. You said that you made your point "politely", but that isn't the case. I don't know if you acted in bad faith or in ignorance, but in both cases, you should try to be a bit more nice and open about how you approach people here. I don't really get what you're trying to say with "I've flagged this thread to give the moderators an opportunity to consider this data point; HN is a great community but I think that it is numerically male-dominated. That of course needn't necessarily translate into cultural problems but I am disappointed by the behavior of thread participants here.". Are you disappointed because you got downvoted without any explanation? Or that people don't react as much as they should to the "him"? Or something else?

hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago

What "No-code" platform? It makes no sense at all! First, you're extremely limited in what you can do. Second, in all these limitations, you are completely dependent on what someone else decides to create for you (or not). Just forget it. It all depends on what you want to create. If your idea is relatively simple, like CRUD-based, you will do yourself a favor by trying to implement it yourself in something like Laravel or Django. These projects have huge communities with tons of modules. You don't have to be that "technical" to use them. Creating an MVP will give you a rough idea of the level of complexity and effort needed, and this will help you to make a decision about the actual implementation. Besides, an experience you get while working on this MVP will make your next projects much easier. You will also understand your coding colleagues better and it will be difficult for you to be ripped off when outsourcing to another team.

mchusma 5y ago

Honestly here is what I would recommend: 1) if your app is more of an "app" - use a low code platform like bubble to develop the app. This will help you learn technical concepts and work out some of your idea. 2) if your idea is more "content based" (like blog or directory with filters), use Webflow 3) if your idea is a game, learn unity or unreal. You basically have to become much more technical to be helpful to your startup at the beginning. I think "learning to code" is a good answer, but realistically if you want to sort of figure things out in the next 1-2 years, these other approaches are the best ones to work. I also think you will have a dramatically easier time getting a technical co founder of you have a prototype, can share your vision, and also be a better product manager. It's very hard for completely non technical people to contribute to technical development.

slake 5y ago
'Be a better product manager' is key here. I would say if non-tech people have to learn one skill to manage a tech company it's learn product management. Then in my opinion any of the approaches will work. Your clarity of thought and features and roadmap and scope is the most critical to building a good product. Very, very rarely can you outsource that.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

atatatat 5y ago

Why do you want the easy option instead of the correct option considering long-term...which people here can provide you insight toward?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

redsymbol 5y ago

"Which one is easy?" None of them. I am sure you are an industrious hard worker. And to do this successfully, you need to expand your determination, resourcefulness, and sheer visceral grit far beyond what you have ever done before. It is not easy. AND, you can do it, if you decide to. Allow me to advise you: for each of these three options, write out all steps in the process of building an MVP through that method. As much detail as you can. Get to the point where you can imagine being successful using ANY of them. Then you will have clarity to choose. And then: follow it to the end, regardless of what it asks of you. Then you will change your HN username. You will see yourself as a true entrepreneur; not because you want to be one, but because you KNOW you are. Best of luck building your MVP. Keep at it, and you will be successful. (Source: I am an entrepreneur who bootstrapped my company to 6-figs revenue while retaining 100% equity, expecting to break 7-figs in 2022, and believe I will reach 8 figs by 2023 or earlier.)

codegeek 5y ago
"expecting to break 7-figs in 2022, and believe I will reach 8 figs by 2023 or earlier" That will be something and would love to learn why/how you think you can achieve that being bootstrapped. Going from 1M to 10M in 1 year being bootstrapped has to be something special. Not doubting but just wondering how you believe you can achieve this without funding/extra money ?
- redsymbol 5y ago
  Different business models have different capitalization requirements; some (e.g. a grocery store chain) are nearly impossible to rapidly scale without massive outside investment. If a business model has (a) a high enough gross margin, and (b) good-enough intrinsic economies of scale, then by the time it reaches several $100k in revenue, there is a good chance it will be crystal clear how to scale up 7 and then 8 figures. And you will be sitting on a big enough pile of cash that there is no need to take outside funding to implement that. Many B2B SaaS business models in particular can find themselves in this excellent situation. You can still take outside funding; after all, a growing business at that point is attractive to outside investors. But then it becomes a choice about growth rate in exchange for keeping equity and strategic control. I decided in my case it was completely unnecessary, so I am not doing it.

birbs 5y ago

I would focus on what you bring to the table. If you’re able to drive sales for this idea, or come up with a compelling marketing plan to drive user acquisition, then you should have no trouble finding someone to make the app for you.

tchock23 5y ago

Depends on the scope of your MVP, but nowadays I would start in Bubble.io if it’s a web app or Adalo if going native. Use the prototype you create there for validation and early traction, and then consider bringing that to a tech co-founder. It’s far easier to find a tech co-founder if you have shown the initiative to build a prototype and have early traction. Note that none of your options are ‘easy’ per se - all three entail a lot of work…

aeoleonn 5y ago

I had the same question. So I learned to develop web apps. Now I realize I wouldn't want a non-tech co-founder unless they have significant business experience.

dustymcp 5y ago

Would learn enough to code my mvp, getting a co-founder with tech experience is very tough if you have no leverage or ideas scratched out already. No code is a way to achieve this but again i would recommend being a part of the process.

pyromaker 5y ago

I use Newsy to test things out initially. Newsy (https://www.newsy.co https://www.newsy.co) is a tool that converts a domain name into a content-aggregator (i.e. Reddit clone). Here's what I've been doing. 1. I have an idea for an app. I buy a domain name. 2. Usually, I don't have much time to develop the domain. And while I'm doing all the market research, I plug my domain to Newsy. Newsy asks me to fill in some niche keywords which are related to my idea or startup I'm thinking of. So I type in "workout", "weight training", "workout training exercises". 3. Newsy will automatically find contents and create it (here's an example - security related - https://www.getinfosec.news https://www.getinfosec.news) 4. It comes with sitemap, newsletter, Twitter integration to regularly post tweets. I also let a few of my colleagues know. Over the next few weeks, it builds traffic. It even gets some people sign up as a newsletter subscriber or member on my Newsy site. Sometimes, I post links on Reddit just to kickstart some traffic driving to my site. It works from time to time. 5. I let it run for about 2-3 months. By this time, I have ~30-50 users signed up with real email address. Now I can actually start emailing these users to find out more about the problem space that I want to solve. Above process has been super interesting - if anything other than to make sure my newly bought domain is being used, not just sitting there idle. Hope that helps someone.