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> But lots of people want that power. And most of us agree that it's bad. But most of us somehow don't agree that forcing wokeness on others is bad. Because th

> But lots of people want that power. And most of us agree that it's bad. But most of us somehow don't agree that forcing wokeness on others is bad. Because the woke ones can't possibly imagine being wrong. Theirs is the right way, everyone else are bigots and racists. It's an aggressive religion, a cult even.

hirako2000 5y ago
True that. I was told to shut it at work, and not just in a private 1 on 1, and nobody moved. corportate American and their employees cowardice in action Behind curtains of course. No reporter to come ask. The signs of tyrany are clear.
SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
That’s only the woke people you hear about. I consider myself pretty woke and the only woke thing I could imagine to demand from a workplace is sexual harassment policies with real teeth. (And not a he said she said scenario but Eg. Dont pinch the ass of your direct report against their consent or else you’re out of the door). I think there are people who take it too far just like there are people who take anything too far. But clearly to me wokeness hasn’t stopped Eg. Blizzard-Activision for all their woke PR so I’m skeptical that wokeness has nearly as much influence as is often implied.
- foolinaround 5y ago
  > sexual harassment policies with real teeth Was'nt sexual harassment recognized as wrong much before this 'woke' thing became popular... What then did 'woke' bring to the table? Increased awareness? action without trial? -- even here we have a mixed bag, we want some trial of sorts, otherwise accusations would fly all over. Those who rail against 'woke' are not railing in favor of the perpetrators in the me-too cases. In many solutions, there are pros and cons of policies, and quite hard to just nail them. The rational people among both those who are woke and those opposed -- should identify those that are clearly detrimental to society without equivalent benefits. One such group - the influence of the college administrators -- comes to mind. This segment is already a major cause of college fees inflation, and now is also identified in bolstering the extreme woke actions. Also, because they are management, they are not going to fix themselves. This is where external actors need to step in to clean up the mess.
- courtf 5y ago
  It would be easier to listen to concerns about creeping wokeness if the alleged dangers were actually different and worse than the problems that already exist. In many states people are fired from their jobs for not being conservative, for being lgbt etc. It happens with full knowledge of the state and is completely legal; the media doesn't even bother trying to follow up. Worse than that: our prison system, our overseas military belligerence etc etc. Wokeness? Add it to the list I guess, but the only reason some people spend so much time screeching about it is because they have been lucky to avoid getting nailed by one of the many other long-lived dangers that continue to stalk our society. It's human nature to ignore the excesses of your own tribe and focus on problems originating across the border, but when it's just pure hypocrisy (another feature of human nature) it's hard to really give a shit. If we were discussing an asteroid hurtling toward the planet I'd like to think we could reach some kind of rough consensus that it is indeed an imminent threat, although my confidence in even this contrived scenario playing out as one might hope has been significantly shaken the more time I spend around large groups of humans. When it comes to trying to mediate the culture war, while real injustices occur on both sides and should punished/prevented, the fact remains that justice is often slow or absent for many, if not most. The truly powerful in our society are conveniently immune from the petty struggles, happy to watch the little people tear each other apart over skin color or religion or anything at all.
- clusterfish 5y ago
  You know how woke people say that being silent about racism you see is being complicit in it? Well it goes both ways. My woke-tending friends refuse to express any opinion condemning any of the woke bullshit, never happened even once. I wonder if that's because they agree with all of that bullshit, or if they're afraid of speaking their mind for dear of being labelled a racist by their own peers. End result is the same though.
sandworm101 5y ago
Because wokeness is not enforced by the state. It is a matter for individuals and companies. No swords are involved.
- swayvil 5y ago
  Losing your job can be pretty sword-like.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    I've met many people who have survived a layoff. Fewer than have survived being run through.
    - dgfitz 5y ago
      Yes but their reputation probably wasn’t completely destroyed which allowed them to find another job I would guess. Not the case with this woke outrage thing.
      - secabeen 5y ago
        Perhaps, but that's still not something we consider state action. People lose their jobs or reputation all the time, and we don't consider it worthy of redress. Many people appreciate the American right to refuse service to anyone; this is that same impulse exercised towards racists and bigots. Time heals most wounds. Although it may feel like their reputation was "completely destroyed", I think many will find that they can get another job, once the immediate thunder and fury blows over.
        dgfitz 5y ago
        The Atlantic wrote an article that does not agree with you. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/10/new-puritans-mob-justice-canceled/619818/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/10/new-pur...
        5y ago
tux3 5y ago
Most of us are good, and the few extremists don't represent who we are. Most of them can't possibly imagine being wrong. They're fanatical cultists. Here's the problem: These two paragraphs are unrestricted opinions, it's a feeling that anyone could have about anyone, and there's nothing factual about it. This is a feeling that's not rooted in falsifiable observations, and so, there is nothing that prevents the same thought from applying to any other group of people. And that's where the symmetry hurts. Maybe they, the other people, maybe they feel the same way about you? That you can't imagine being wrong, that you're fanatical. Wouldn't that make them hypocrites, for painting all those people with the same brushtroke? For making generalizations about people without bringing anything to support those? Without any desire to see yourself proven wrong? I think that someone's words would suffuse hypocrisy, were they to neglect disloging the beam in their own eye, before looking for the mote in their brother's eye.
- clusterfish 5y ago
  I am condemning Christian fanatics. You are however writing abstract apologetics for woke cultists instead of condemning them. That's the difference between us. No need for all this mental gymnastics imagining that most other people on "my side" are worse than me and on "your side" better than you. At least do your own part.

hirako2000 5y ago

True that. I was told to shut it at work, and not just in a private 1 on 1, and nobody moved. corportate American and their employees cowardice in action Behind curtains of course. No reporter to come ask. The signs of tyrany are clear.

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago

That’s only the woke people you hear about. I consider myself pretty woke and the only woke thing I could imagine to demand from a workplace is sexual harassment policies with real teeth. (And not a he said she said scenario but Eg. Dont pinch the ass of your direct report against their consent or else you’re out of the door). I think there are people who take it too far just like there are people who take anything too far. But clearly to me wokeness hasn’t stopped Eg. Blizzard-Activision for all their woke PR so I’m skeptical that wokeness has nearly as much influence as is often implied.

foolinaround 5y ago
> sexual harassment policies with real teeth Was'nt sexual harassment recognized as wrong much before this 'woke' thing became popular... What then did 'woke' bring to the table? Increased awareness? action without trial? -- even here we have a mixed bag, we want some trial of sorts, otherwise accusations would fly all over. Those who rail against 'woke' are not railing in favor of the perpetrators in the me-too cases. In many solutions, there are pros and cons of policies, and quite hard to just nail them. The rational people among both those who are woke and those opposed -- should identify those that are clearly detrimental to society without equivalent benefits. One such group - the influence of the college administrators -- comes to mind. This segment is already a major cause of college fees inflation, and now is also identified in bolstering the extreme woke actions. Also, because they are management, they are not going to fix themselves. This is where external actors need to step in to clean up the mess.
courtf 5y ago
It would be easier to listen to concerns about creeping wokeness if the alleged dangers were actually different and worse than the problems that already exist. In many states people are fired from their jobs for not being conservative, for being lgbt etc. It happens with full knowledge of the state and is completely legal; the media doesn't even bother trying to follow up. Worse than that: our prison system, our overseas military belligerence etc etc. Wokeness? Add it to the list I guess, but the only reason some people spend so much time screeching about it is because they have been lucky to avoid getting nailed by one of the many other long-lived dangers that continue to stalk our society. It's human nature to ignore the excesses of your own tribe and focus on problems originating across the border, but when it's just pure hypocrisy (another feature of human nature) it's hard to really give a shit. If we were discussing an asteroid hurtling toward the planet I'd like to think we could reach some kind of rough consensus that it is indeed an imminent threat, although my confidence in even this contrived scenario playing out as one might hope has been significantly shaken the more time I spend around large groups of humans. When it comes to trying to mediate the culture war, while real injustices occur on both sides and should punished/prevented, the fact remains that justice is often slow or absent for many, if not most. The truly powerful in our society are conveniently immune from the petty struggles, happy to watch the little people tear each other apart over skin color or religion or anything at all.
clusterfish 5y ago
You know how woke people say that being silent about racism you see is being complicit in it? Well it goes both ways. My woke-tending friends refuse to express any opinion condemning any of the woke bullshit, never happened even once. I wonder if that's because they agree with all of that bullshit, or if they're afraid of speaking their mind for dear of being labelled a racist by their own peers. End result is the same though.

sandworm101 5y ago

Because wokeness is not enforced by the state. It is a matter for individuals and companies. No swords are involved.

swayvil 5y ago
Losing your job can be pretty sword-like.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  I've met many people who have survived a layoff. Fewer than have survived being run through.
  - dgfitz 5y ago
    Yes but their reputation probably wasn’t completely destroyed which allowed them to find another job I would guess. Not the case with this woke outrage thing.
    - secabeen 5y ago
      Perhaps, but that's still not something we consider state action. People lose their jobs or reputation all the time, and we don't consider it worthy of redress. Many people appreciate the American right to refuse service to anyone; this is that same impulse exercised towards racists and bigots. Time heals most wounds. Although it may feel like their reputation was "completely destroyed", I think many will find that they can get another job, once the immediate thunder and fury blows over.
      - dgfitz 5y ago
        The Atlantic wrote an article that does not agree with you. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/10/new-puritans-mob-justice-canceled/619818/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/10/new-pur...
      - 5y ago

tux3 5y ago

Most of us are good, and the few extremists don't represent who we are. Most of them can't possibly imagine being wrong. They're fanatical cultists. Here's the problem: These two paragraphs are unrestricted opinions, it's a feeling that anyone could have about anyone, and there's nothing factual about it. This is a feeling that's not rooted in falsifiable observations, and so, there is nothing that prevents the same thought from applying to any other group of people. And that's where the symmetry hurts. Maybe they, the other people, maybe they feel the same way about you? That you can't imagine being wrong, that you're fanatical. Wouldn't that make them hypocrites, for painting all those people with the same brushtroke? For making generalizations about people without bringing anything to support those? Without any desire to see yourself proven wrong? I think that someone's words would suffuse hypocrisy, were they to neglect disloging the beam in their own eye, before looking for the mote in their brother's eye.

clusterfish 5y ago
I am condemning Christian fanatics. You are however writing abstract apologetics for woke cultists instead of condemning them. That's the difference between us. No need for all this mental gymnastics imagining that most other people on "my side" are worse than me and on "your side" better than you. At least do your own part.