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"Vote with our wallet" is an illusion. Do you really think you can cast a vote by _NOT buying_ an iPhone? In large companies -like Apple-, there is tracking of

by Fiahil 5y ago

"Vote with our wallet" is an illusion. Do you really think you can cast a vote by _NOT buying_ an iPhone? In large companies -like Apple-, there is tracking of conversions (see the ad -> buy the product), churn (a client who stopped coming/buying), interest/reach (who am I targeting with this ad). And that's it. There is no tracking of "people who would have bought an iPhone but chose not to SPECIFICALLY because of the new tracking feature we added. Thinking this kind of metric is relevant and measurable is a complete fantasy, and borderline silly. Public discussion might influence product decisions. But it have to be hugely controversial to have any effect. You can't "vote with your wallet". That's it. I have no idea why such belief made it's way into pop culture.

fouc 5y ago
A boycott is an illusion?
- mromanuk 5y ago
  To boycott, a large portion of buyers are needed on board. That’s why “vote with your wallet” in loneliness like a “rational agent” doesn’t work. Are you going to vote and convince others to boycott?
danuker 5y ago
> You can't "vote with your wallet". If there's anything that will make a business listen, it's money (or lack of it). When it affects the bottom line, they are forced to listen. Sure, I don't affect them much by myself. But everyone commenting about Apple around my presence will find out why I am not sponsoring them. There is also the crappy hardware design, not just the privacy issues (which negate the advertising spending they made the months before). Here is what Louis Rossmann, who repairs Apple devices, says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Pretty clearly, forty-plus years of sustained warnings and criticisms[1] of increasing surveillance and security failures have failed to have any substantive influence on the industry. It's not that the concerns aren't justified. It's that they're far too complex to be communicated and grasped by the public as a whole, and they facilitate far too much by way of immediate profit and market advantage to the vendors who will more than happily ignore the warnings. A boycott by the vanishingly small fraction of the market which does fully grasp the issue is no threat at all. ________________________________ Notes: 1. See: https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/105074933053020193 https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/105074933053020193
auggierose 5y ago
I find your argument a bit silly, but why do you think wallet voters would not show up as churn?
- mromanuk 5y ago
  As stated above, if you want to show up in the CHURN. Many “voters” are needed (as in millions), a few guys mad at Apple, stopping from buying a product, are not even a blip. You need to spread awareness, convince others, to join in your crusade.
- Fiahil 5y ago
  You need to correctly assign the churn event to the privacy issue. This is a) very difficult to do and b) not evaluated because churn relates to marketing, not product design. "Wallet voters" live under the illusion that their intent is known and taken into account by BigCo decision makers. This is NOT the case. They just don't show up in reports. So what do you think they are going to do about it ? Nothing. If you want to influence product design, you can talk about it online and condemn their choice. If that's big and controversial enough, they might do something about it. And ypu can do that while buying a new iPhone as well because it doesn't matter.
falcolas 5y ago
> Do you really think you can cast a vote by _NOT buying_ an iPhone Isn't that how any vote works? My ballot is one of several hundred million - statistically meaningless by itself. But it is a vote. And if enough people vote, the millions of statistically meaningless datapoints become meaningful. And in the end, even if my single wallet-vote is meaningless, I'm no longer affected by what Apple chooses to do with their phones. A successful vote, IMO.

by Fiahil 5y ago

fouc 5y ago

A boycott is an illusion?

mromanuk 5y ago
To boycott, a large portion of buyers are needed on board. That’s why “vote with your wallet” in loneliness like a “rational agent” doesn’t work. Are you going to vote and convince others to boycott?

danuker 5y ago

> You can't "vote with your wallet". If there's anything that will make a business listen, it's money (or lack of it). When it affects the bottom line, they are forced to listen. Sure, I don't affect them much by myself. But everyone commenting about Apple around my presence will find out why I am not sponsoring them. There is also the crappy hardware design, not just the privacy issues (which negate the advertising spending they made the months before). Here is what Louis Rossmann, who repairs Apple devices, says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

dredmorbius 5y ago
Pretty clearly, forty-plus years of sustained warnings and criticisms[1] of increasing surveillance and security failures have failed to have any substantive influence on the industry. It's not that the concerns aren't justified. It's that they're far too complex to be communicated and grasped by the public as a whole, and they facilitate far too much by way of immediate profit and market advantage to the vendors who will more than happily ignore the warnings. A boycott by the vanishingly small fraction of the market which does fully grasp the issue is no threat at all. ________________________________ Notes: 1. See: https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/105074933053020193 https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/105074933053020193

auggierose 5y ago

I find your argument a bit silly, but why do you think wallet voters would not show up as churn?

mromanuk 5y ago
As stated above, if you want to show up in the CHURN. Many “voters” are needed (as in millions), a few guys mad at Apple, stopping from buying a product, are not even a blip. You need to spread awareness, convince others, to join in your crusade.
Fiahil 5y ago
You need to correctly assign the churn event to the privacy issue. This is a) very difficult to do and b) not evaluated because churn relates to marketing, not product design. "Wallet voters" live under the illusion that their intent is known and taken into account by BigCo decision makers. This is NOT the case. They just don't show up in reports. So what do you think they are going to do about it ? Nothing. If you want to influence product design, you can talk about it online and condemn their choice. If that's big and controversial enough, they might do something about it. And ypu can do that while buying a new iPhone as well because it doesn't matter.

falcolas 5y ago

> Do you really think you can cast a vote by _NOT buying_ an iPhone Isn't that how any vote works? My ballot is one of several hundred million - statistically meaningless by itself. But it is a vote. And if enough people vote, the millions of statistically meaningless datapoints become meaningful. And in the end, even if my single wallet-vote is meaningless, I'm no longer affected by what Apple chooses to do with their phones. A successful vote, IMO.