17 ms·

It's dangerous to dismiss transgenderism to be the result of psychological mishaps caused by environmental mishaps. You're effectively presenting a transgender

by lwhi 5y ago

It's dangerous to dismiss transgenderism to be the result of psychological mishaps caused by environmental mishaps. You're effectively presenting a transgender person as a second class person, or a mistake. You're also aligning the ability to grow a beard with being a 1st class citizen.

shtps 5y ago
It is equally dangerous to ignore environmental factors. We also know that male fertility is on a sharp decline but don't know why, this may be related and should be investigated.
- doitLP 5y ago
  And we know biphenol/phthalate chemicals mimic estrogen in the body and have been in just about everything for the last couple generations. At least it has to be considered. Hormones
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
andy_ppp 5y ago
Nope, what you’re doing is totally misrepresenting what I’ve said. I’m saying if there are more effeminate men you’ll have on average more people who are transgender. Myself I can barely grow a beard and have man boobs that I’m trying to get rid of and hardly any body hair (yet my Dad has a full beard and hairy chest, I’m asking why is there this big difference in just one generation) but hopefully I still count as a first class citizen!
- lwhi 5y ago
  > I’m saying if there are more effeminate men you’ll have on average more people who are transgender. How is this true? How will these men mean there are more transgender people in the world?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - andy_ppp 5y ago
    I don’t think you’re trying to discuss these things honestly. Are you really saying sexual characteristics aren’t controlled by hormones and these sexual characteristics don’t have any effect on how humans think about their gender?
    - lwhi 5y ago
      So in this case, do these characteristics stop a man from identifying with the gender they were born with?
      - andy_ppp 5y ago
        We all start off genderless until testosterone washes over the male unborn foetus starting some of the gender characteristics like penises and brain changes. I think (it’s hard to tell as you’re so muddled in your thinking) you’re taking the bell curve of differences and how those differences manifest and attempting to make up concrete rules. Statistics doesn’t work that way.
        lwhi 5y ago
        If testosterone is the defining characteristic of being male, I have no idea why trans people born male need take hormones to reduce testosterone levels. Also gender is independent of sexual apparatus.
        andy_ppp 5y ago
        I really don’t get your argument at all. Testosterone and other androgens can increase masculine features. In a purely statistical sense gender and sexual apparatus are heavily correlated, but then I see gender as being more of a spectrum than a binary anyway. I think these things can be influenced by the environment a lot, if you believe you’re a bunch of chemical reactions happening in a biological system how can what we be anything apart from hormones, genetics and culture interacting to express a gender?
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  Be aware that men are coming under the same pressure on appearance that women have had for decades. I'm in my 50's, and can remember a time when there wasn't this awareness of men's bodies. While it was admirable to be fit, and women certainly appreciated muscles and a lack of a beer gut, it wasn't seen as that important. Men could be flabby and still seen as physically attractive. Moobs are normal. Not being able to grow a thick beard is normal. Body hair, or any hair, or not, is normal (I could count the number of hairs on my chest in my 20's and never once considered this to be unusual or in any way affecting my masculinity). I have friends who were balding in their mid-20's and that was normal. The difference between 30 years ago and now is not in men's bodies. It's in our attitudes to men's bodies. Men (and women, as always) are being taught to hate our bodies because businesses can profit from that emotion. We are being told that no-one will love us unless we're taller, stronger, hairier. We're being fed images of "perfect" men as aspirational targets that we should aspire to match (and to get there we need to buy a bunch of products, obviously). We need to learn that all bodies are different, and all are acceptable. It's normal to have flabby bits. If you have to hate something, don't hate your body, hate the people telling you that your body is not good enough.
  - adflux 5y ago
    Please do some research before you state facts. Testosterone levels have been decreasing for decades, in significant amounts. https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-the-man-your-father-was/?sh=e64cf8a8b7fd https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-t...
    - marcus_holmes 5y ago
      I'm stating my experience. This is a fact. Interestingly, the Forbes article you're referencing is partially based on this paper: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2612615 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/26126... which confirms a link between advertising and voluntary testosterone testing (entirely supporting my point). Men are being targeted by advertising that encourages them to think about their bodies differently.
  - 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- corobo 5y ago
  > Myself I can barely grow a beard and have man boobs that I’m trying to get rid of and hardly any body hair Do you by chance sit around at a PC all day and get less exercise than you really should? I'm not sure I'd pin this on a biology thing just yet, there's so many things that could cause that Losing weight and getting exercise gave me all sorts of "manly" traits. Turns out sitting around letting your muscles go to goo can mess with your systems a bunch. I have to shave too often now if anything haha However if we wanted to turn this into a hypothesis our first stumble is that not all gender dysphoric people are overweight, so it's probably not that
  - andy_ppp 5y ago
    > not all gender dysphoric people are overweight Who said this? I do four hard weight focused workouts per week of 1.5h each so 6h of exercise. I probably need to address diet, but even so, lots of fresh home cooked meals in there. Maybe need to do more cardio but that tends to set off my SVT. Thanks for asking.
    - corobo 5y ago
      I'm not saying that you said it, I'm saying we can probably rule it out as a hypothesis because there's no correlation that I know of. Admittedly I have never looked into it so only know the people I know It came up as a thought because you mentioned manboobs, which I have personal experience with hence the rest of my comment, but aside from that my words are my own
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    > However if we wanted to turn this into a hypothesis our first stumble is that not all gender dysphoric people are overweight, so it's probably not that Like all the “why are people gay‽”-type nonsense, I also think it's not that – but people are complicated. There is not going to be a single factor for anything, so I don't think that's a valid reason to discard the hypothesis. “There is no real correlation in the first place” would be.
    - deleted 5y ago
- etempleton 5y ago
  What do the men look like on your mother’s side?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

by lwhi 5y ago

shtps 5y ago

It is equally dangerous to ignore environmental factors. We also know that male fertility is on a sharp decline but don't know why, this may be related and should be investigated.

doitLP 5y ago
And we know biphenol/phthalate chemicals mimic estrogen in the body and have been in just about everything for the last couple generations. At least it has to be considered. Hormones

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

andy_ppp 5y ago

Nope, what you’re doing is totally misrepresenting what I’ve said. I’m saying if there are more effeminate men you’ll have on average more people who are transgender. Myself I can barely grow a beard and have man boobs that I’m trying to get rid of and hardly any body hair (yet my Dad has a full beard and hairy chest, I’m asking why is there this big difference in just one generation) but hopefully I still count as a first class citizen!

lwhi 5y ago
> I’m saying if there are more effeminate men you’ll have on average more people who are transgender. How is this true? How will these men mean there are more transgender people in the world?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- andy_ppp 5y ago
  I don’t think you’re trying to discuss these things honestly. Are you really saying sexual characteristics aren’t controlled by hormones and these sexual characteristics don’t have any effect on how humans think about their gender?
  - lwhi 5y ago
    So in this case, do these characteristics stop a man from identifying with the gender they were born with?
    - andy_ppp 5y ago
      We all start off genderless until testosterone washes over the male unborn foetus starting some of the gender characteristics like penises and brain changes. I think (it’s hard to tell as you’re so muddled in your thinking) you’re taking the bell curve of differences and how those differences manifest and attempting to make up concrete rules. Statistics doesn’t work that way.
      - lwhi 5y ago
        If testosterone is the defining characteristic of being male, I have no idea why trans people born male need take hormones to reduce testosterone levels. Also gender is independent of sexual apparatus.
        andy_ppp 5y ago
        I really don’t get your argument at all. Testosterone and other androgens can increase masculine features. In a purely statistical sense gender and sexual apparatus are heavily correlated, but then I see gender as being more of a spectrum than a binary anyway. I think these things can be influenced by the environment a lot, if you believe you’re a bunch of chemical reactions happening in a biological system how can what we be anything apart from hormones, genetics and culture interacting to express a gender?
marcus_holmes 5y ago
Be aware that men are coming under the same pressure on appearance that women have had for decades. I'm in my 50's, and can remember a time when there wasn't this awareness of men's bodies. While it was admirable to be fit, and women certainly appreciated muscles and a lack of a beer gut, it wasn't seen as that important. Men could be flabby and still seen as physically attractive. Moobs are normal. Not being able to grow a thick beard is normal. Body hair, or any hair, or not, is normal (I could count the number of hairs on my chest in my 20's and never once considered this to be unusual or in any way affecting my masculinity). I have friends who were balding in their mid-20's and that was normal. The difference between 30 years ago and now is not in men's bodies. It's in our attitudes to men's bodies. Men (and women, as always) are being taught to hate our bodies because businesses can profit from that emotion. We are being told that no-one will love us unless we're taller, stronger, hairier. We're being fed images of "perfect" men as aspirational targets that we should aspire to match (and to get there we need to buy a bunch of products, obviously). We need to learn that all bodies are different, and all are acceptable. It's normal to have flabby bits. If you have to hate something, don't hate your body, hate the people telling you that your body is not good enough.
- adflux 5y ago
  Please do some research before you state facts. Testosterone levels have been decreasing for decades, in significant amounts. https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-the-man-your-father-was/?sh=e64cf8a8b7fd https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-t...
  - marcus_holmes 5y ago
    I'm stating my experience. This is a fact. Interestingly, the Forbes article you're referencing is partially based on this paper: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2612615 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/26126... which confirms a link between advertising and voluntary testosterone testing (entirely supporting my point). Men are being targeted by advertising that encourages them to think about their bodies differently.
- 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
corobo 5y ago
> Myself I can barely grow a beard and have man boobs that I’m trying to get rid of and hardly any body hair Do you by chance sit around at a PC all day and get less exercise than you really should? I'm not sure I'd pin this on a biology thing just yet, there's so many things that could cause that Losing weight and getting exercise gave me all sorts of "manly" traits. Turns out sitting around letting your muscles go to goo can mess with your systems a bunch. I have to shave too often now if anything haha However if we wanted to turn this into a hypothesis our first stumble is that not all gender dysphoric people are overweight, so it's probably not that
- andy_ppp 5y ago
  > not all gender dysphoric people are overweight Who said this? I do four hard weight focused workouts per week of 1.5h each so 6h of exercise. I probably need to address diet, but even so, lots of fresh home cooked meals in there. Maybe need to do more cardio but that tends to set off my SVT. Thanks for asking.
  - corobo 5y ago
    I'm not saying that you said it, I'm saying we can probably rule it out as a hypothesis because there's no correlation that I know of. Admittedly I have never looked into it so only know the people I know It came up as a thought because you mentioned manboobs, which I have personal experience with hence the rest of my comment, but aside from that my words are my own
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  > However if we wanted to turn this into a hypothesis our first stumble is that not all gender dysphoric people are overweight, so it's probably not that Like all the “why are people gay‽”-type nonsense, I also think it's not that – but people are complicated. There is not going to be a single factor for anything, so I don't think that's a valid reason to discard the hypothesis. “There is no real correlation in the first place” would be.
  - deleted 5y ago
etempleton 5y ago
What do the men look like on your mother’s side?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]