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> White supremacists -as in people who believe most of the same thing as actual literal nazis, are by no means rare these days The conflation of white supremac

> White supremacists -as in people who believe most of the same thing as actual literal nazis, are by no means rare these days The conflation of white supremacism and naziism is pretty much entirely political maneuvering. They believe very different things about the state, forms of government, gay people, culture, land use and many other things. Not to mention that only a small number of people termed white supremacists actually are (it conflates believing in racial differences (which are often not just white>everything) with believing in racial segregation with believing that the "white" ethnic group will form a better society),

foldr 5y ago
Pretty scary that believing in racial segregation is no longer a fringe belief. In any case, you can’t tell me with a straight face that white people who believe in segregation, in the US, envision a society where there is no power imbalance between ethnic groups. These people want white people to be in charge, which is what white supremacy means in practice.
- concordDance 5y ago
  Depends on the people. Some would just want the USA split into a few smaller countries. Also, it's still pretty fringe.
  - foldr 5y ago
    >Some would just want the USA split into a few smaller countries. "Just" strikes me as an inappropriate adverb to use in this context. You are talking about splitting up the US into racially segregated states. Even in a bizarre hypothetical where this was somehow done with the best of intentions (lol), the amount of chaos and human suffering it would cause is almost impossible to imagine. This sort of utterly insane belief should not be "pretty fringe". It should be virtually non-existent, in a reasonably sane and healthy society. It's a real sea change in our culture that racial segregation is now openly considered or even advocated on relatively mainstream forums such as HN. That some of the people in question might not meet some overly pedantic definition of 'white supremacist' is hardly any consolation. The far right has never taken its own ideology seriously – it's all a means to an end. They tie sympathetic intellectuals up in knots trying to parse and categorize the finer gradations of racist nonsense, and then do whatever they hell they want once they're in power.
    - concordDance 5y ago
      > The far right has never taken its own ideology seriously – it's all a means to an end. They tie sympathetic intellectuals up in knots trying to parse and categorize the finer gradations of racist nonsense, This really doesn't match my experience given how much time they spend arguing/discussing amongst themselves.
      - foldr 5y ago
        Perhaps then you can point me to an intellectually coherent defense of the idea that the US should be split up into racially segregated ethnostates. Bickering and infighting hardly constitute evidence that intellectually serious work is being done in good faith. The far right has no more use for its 'useful idiots' once it attains power than the Communist party did for its pet intellectuals.
        concordDance 5y ago
        That's goalpost shifting. My point was that they do take their own ideas seriously and it's not just a performance to confuse their enemies.
        foldr 5y ago
        They take their political project seriously, but you won’t find an intellectually serious defense of far right ideology because they are simply not interested in doing that. I am not sure why people are so keen to provide cover for these people by keeping up the pretense that they have some kind of coherent political ideology that can be rationally debated. No-one who is nuts enough to advocate for racially segregated ethnostates within the USA is in that category.
        joelbluminator 5y ago
        And defunding the police isn't nuts? It's not like the Woke left makes much more sense. Since when is a coherent political ideology a precondition to anything?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Depends on the people. Some would just want the USA split into a few smaller countries. That doesn’t mean they don’t still want White America in charge; moving a group out of the bounds of the state [0] doesn’t suddenly mean there is no power dynamic, as such dynamics are evident between states. [0] in the international sense, not in the US-domestic sense
scollet 5y ago
Reasonable beings don't care to make that distinction.
- concordDance 5y ago
  I think all reasonable beings should care about describing things accurately and not conflating different things. For instance, arguments against one of them might not hold against another. Note that this is far from just a blue tribe thing, it's pretty universal across all politics around the world to deliberately conflate the views of your stupidest enemies and your smartest.
- cloudfifty 5y ago
  To add some IMO relevant context: concordDance is a self-described racist.
  - concordDance 5y ago
    By a fraction of definitions, yes. https://youtu.be/tbud8rLejLM https://youtu.be/tbud8rLejLM
Applejinx 5y ago
No, this is known alt-right maneuvering, consistent with Nazi doctrine. You can replace that with 'fascist' if you like :) Fussing about debatey details while repeatedly planting the desired concepts and trying to get anything you can, conceded so you can place a marker and push further, is very Nazi. It's foundational alt-right strategy, along the lines of 'hiding your power level'. This is not mysterious. The reason it looks like that to you, is because fascists believe nothing… but power (and that only they should hold power, forever: it's not a thing to be shared or handed back and forth). So anything might be claimed, but outside the practical seizing of power, nothing matters. This is VERY common. Hence people's concern about the matter.

foldr 5y ago

Pretty scary that believing in racial segregation is no longer a fringe belief. In any case, you can’t tell me with a straight face that white people who believe in segregation, in the US, envision a society where there is no power imbalance between ethnic groups. These people want white people to be in charge, which is what white supremacy means in practice.

concordDance 5y ago
Depends on the people. Some would just want the USA split into a few smaller countries. Also, it's still pretty fringe.
- foldr 5y ago
  >Some would just want the USA split into a few smaller countries. "Just" strikes me as an inappropriate adverb to use in this context. You are talking about splitting up the US into racially segregated states. Even in a bizarre hypothetical where this was somehow done with the best of intentions (lol), the amount of chaos and human suffering it would cause is almost impossible to imagine. This sort of utterly insane belief should not be "pretty fringe". It should be virtually non-existent, in a reasonably sane and healthy society. It's a real sea change in our culture that racial segregation is now openly considered or even advocated on relatively mainstream forums such as HN. That some of the people in question might not meet some overly pedantic definition of 'white supremacist' is hardly any consolation. The far right has never taken its own ideology seriously – it's all a means to an end. They tie sympathetic intellectuals up in knots trying to parse and categorize the finer gradations of racist nonsense, and then do whatever they hell they want once they're in power.
  - concordDance 5y ago
    > The far right has never taken its own ideology seriously – it's all a means to an end. They tie sympathetic intellectuals up in knots trying to parse and categorize the finer gradations of racist nonsense, This really doesn't match my experience given how much time they spend arguing/discussing amongst themselves.
    - foldr 5y ago
      Perhaps then you can point me to an intellectually coherent defense of the idea that the US should be split up into racially segregated ethnostates. Bickering and infighting hardly constitute evidence that intellectually serious work is being done in good faith. The far right has no more use for its 'useful idiots' once it attains power than the Communist party did for its pet intellectuals.
      - concordDance 5y ago
        That's goalpost shifting. My point was that they do take their own ideas seriously and it's not just a performance to confuse their enemies.
        foldr 5y ago
        They take their political project seriously, but you won’t find an intellectually serious defense of far right ideology because they are simply not interested in doing that. I am not sure why people are so keen to provide cover for these people by keeping up the pretense that they have some kind of coherent political ideology that can be rationally debated. No-one who is nuts enough to advocate for racially segregated ethnostates within the USA is in that category.
        joelbluminator 5y ago
        And defunding the police isn't nuts? It's not like the Woke left makes much more sense. Since when is a coherent political ideology a precondition to anything?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Depends on the people. Some would just want the USA split into a few smaller countries. That doesn’t mean they don’t still want White America in charge; moving a group out of the bounds of the state [0] doesn’t suddenly mean there is no power dynamic, as such dynamics are evident between states. [0] in the international sense, not in the US-domestic sense

scollet 5y ago

Reasonable beings don't care to make that distinction.

concordDance 5y ago
I think all reasonable beings should care about describing things accurately and not conflating different things. For instance, arguments against one of them might not hold against another. Note that this is far from just a blue tribe thing, it's pretty universal across all politics around the world to deliberately conflate the views of your stupidest enemies and your smartest.
cloudfifty 5y ago
To add some IMO relevant context: concordDance is a self-described racist.
- concordDance 5y ago
  By a fraction of definitions, yes. https://youtu.be/tbud8rLejLM https://youtu.be/tbud8rLejLM

Applejinx 5y ago

No, this is known alt-right maneuvering, consistent with Nazi doctrine. You can replace that with 'fascist' if you like :) Fussing about debatey details while repeatedly planting the desired concepts and trying to get anything you can, conceded so you can place a marker and push further, is very Nazi. It's foundational alt-right strategy, along the lines of 'hiding your power level'. This is not mysterious. The reason it looks like that to you, is because fascists believe nothing… but power (and that only they should hold power, forever: it's not a thing to be shared or handed back and forth). So anything might be claimed, but outside the practical seizing of power, nothing matters. This is VERY common. Hence people's concern about the matter.