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Maybe we need a new definition for these extreme groups? I've always found using left and right to describe authoritarian hellscapes to be a little off... And

Maybe we need a new definition for these extreme groups? I've always found using left and right to describe authoritarian hellscapes to be a little off... And to be honest I've always found using left and right when viewed from an American perspective to not work either. In my country the furthest "right" mainstream party would sit a mile to the left of your democrats while the republicans would be considered "extreme right" bordering on illegal.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
You can look at the political compass the Libertarians are always using. Then you learn that Stalin is a left-authoritarian and Hitler is a right-authoritarian and the lesson is that all authoritarianism is a hellscape. But even that is just a toy model. If Alice is pro-choice and anti-gun, those are in opposite quadrants. If Bob is the exact opposite, do we say that they're both in the middle, even though they disagree on everything? > In my country the furthest "right" mainstream party would sit a mile to the left of your democrats while the republicans would be considered "extreme right" bordering on illegal. The thing about the US is that the federal government is a kleptocracy, so both parties never actually do the things they say they're going to do. If you judge the Democrats by what they say, they're pretty far to the left. But then they don't do that. If you judge the Republicans by what they say, they're pretty far to the right. But then they don't do that. People who want to claim that the country is far to the right then point to what the Democrats actually do and what the Republicans say they want to do. But, for example, the US has government spending as a percentage of GDP in line with the Netherlands or Australia and not dramatically less than the UK or Germany. If you take all the law books full of regulations in the US and put them on a scale, not many countries could match them. If you go back to the political compass, it's maybe more authoritarian than some of Western Europe -- certainly more people are in prison -- but left vs. right? By what objective measure?
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  It's not government spending as an absolute number, it's who - specifically which class - benefits from the money. It's the difference between building useful infrastructure and giving a huge handout to a billionaire who is already one of the richest people on the planet. The US generally leans authoritarian, and bullying at all levels is endemic. That includes the nominal "left", although the far right in the US tends to be far worse. Because while the US left is irrational about a few things, the US far right is hopelessly irrational about almost everything - and armed with it.
- sk5t 5y ago
  Yours is a well-written comment and I'd give it more than one upvote if I could. I wonder if the reality of Democrats' rather strong indifference to progressive economics and meaningful reform--and the GOP spending taxpayer dollars like a drunken sailor--rubs some folks the wrong way.
iammisc 5y ago
Well to be a conservative in america (ie, to want to conserve american forma of constitutionalism) is to be a Europeans leftist, because the American constitution is a left wing document when seen through the eyes of European politics.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago

You can look at the political compass the Libertarians are always using. Then you learn that Stalin is a left-authoritarian and Hitler is a right-authoritarian and the lesson is that all authoritarianism is a hellscape. But even that is just a toy model. If Alice is pro-choice and anti-gun, those are in opposite quadrants. If Bob is the exact opposite, do we say that they're both in the middle, even though they disagree on everything? > In my country the furthest "right" mainstream party would sit a mile to the left of your democrats while the republicans would be considered "extreme right" bordering on illegal. The thing about the US is that the federal government is a kleptocracy, so both parties never actually do the things they say they're going to do. If you judge the Democrats by what they say, they're pretty far to the left. But then they don't do that. If you judge the Republicans by what they say, they're pretty far to the right. But then they don't do that. People who want to claim that the country is far to the right then point to what the Democrats actually do and what the Republicans say they want to do. But, for example, the US has government spending as a percentage of GDP in line with the Netherlands or Australia and not dramatically less than the UK or Germany. If you take all the law books full of regulations in the US and put them on a scale, not many countries could match them. If you go back to the political compass, it's maybe more authoritarian than some of Western Europe -- certainly more people are in prison -- but left vs. right? By what objective measure?

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
It's not government spending as an absolute number, it's who - specifically which class - benefits from the money. It's the difference between building useful infrastructure and giving a huge handout to a billionaire who is already one of the richest people on the planet. The US generally leans authoritarian, and bullying at all levels is endemic. That includes the nominal "left", although the far right in the US tends to be far worse. Because while the US left is irrational about a few things, the US far right is hopelessly irrational about almost everything - and armed with it.
sk5t 5y ago
Yours is a well-written comment and I'd give it more than one upvote if I could. I wonder if the reality of Democrats' rather strong indifference to progressive economics and meaningful reform--and the GOP spending taxpayer dollars like a drunken sailor--rubs some folks the wrong way.

iammisc 5y ago

Well to be a conservative in america (ie, to want to conserve american forma of constitutionalism) is to be a Europeans leftist, because the American constitution is a left wing document when seen through the eyes of European politics.