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Keeping up written proficiency in Chinese is a pretty big task, though. It's hard enough for people who live in China: https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=

Keeping up written proficiency in Chinese is a pretty big task, though. It's hard enough for people who live in China: https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2473 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2473 Logographic languages are also a little more disconnected from their written form than spoken form than alphabetic languages, for obvious reasons. You can't sound out 皻, or work out its pronunciation from each radical. The spoken form of each symbol has to be memorized.

lhorie 5y ago
If my wife is any indication, reading does work to retain language (she speaks Mandarin, reads Mandarin novels, and has no problem w/ the language ever after more than a decade living in North America). Conversely, I had a japanese friend in college that fully immersed with non-japanese friends and liked to spend free time going to the movies. She realized after a couple years that she had forgotten how to write the name of train stations in Japan. Use or lose it, seems to be name of the game.
- nsf39k 5y ago
  Very much so - even if you’re partially immersed. Grew up with immigrant parents where Mandarin was spoken in the household but lived in a area with no other Chinese-Americans. Even though I was exposed to the spoken language daily, I wound up forgetting how to read and write Mandarin by middle school. Did my best to re-learn it but I rarely ever read/write in Mandarin so I would just regress after a bit - by this point I think I’ve re-learned how to read or write basic Mandarin at least three times and have regressed each successive time. Interesting note is that I seem to be significantly faster at re-learning things each time I go back to it, but that might just be constant repetition more than anything.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    > Interesting note is that I seem to be significantly faster at re-learning things each time I go back to it, but that might just be constant repetition more than anything. This is the phenomenon exploited by spaced repetition learning. “Trying to remember” is when you learn things the best. Reading something in Mandarin for a couple of minutes every few days will be better than weeks of effort every few years, even though it's less time spent overall.
- Clewza313 5y ago
  Chinese characters (used in Japan as well) are interesting in that you frequently have no idea how to write them by hand, but if you use an IME on your phone/computer and can enter it phonetically, you can trivially recognize and select the right one.
- jhanschoo 5y ago
  I was about to make a comment on the lines of Clewza313's: does your wife retain writing proficiency without the use of a reference?
  - lhorie 5y ago
    Yes, she frequents chinese online forums and writes todo lists in Chinese
cycomanic 5y ago
I've been wondering about this; with logographic languages could you read the language without actually thinking the words. Or in other words could you learn to read e.g. Mandarin without ever learning the language.
- geza 5y ago
  You would likely be interested in Literary Chinese, specifically the way they read it in Japan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanbun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanbun )
- quantum_magpie 5y ago
  That's how my Japanese friends get around when in Taiwan. According to them, they understand ~95% of everything that's written, but have no idea how to express any of that verbally.
  - hnfong 5y ago
    It's the same the other way round. I'm a from Hong Kong and I have no trouble reading Kanji in Japan. Once I learned Katakana (which usually just transliterates English) I can also decode 95+% of the things written. And I can't communicate verbally at all... That said, the voice in my head just pronounces the Japanese Kanji in my native Cantonese...
- hnfong 5y ago
  In theory you can do that with any language that has a written form (eg. English). Just that it's counter intuitive and nobody does it that way. I doubt anyone _actually_ learns Mandarin without learning how the common characters are pronounced... Unless you don't have to verbally communicate with a teacher / fellow classmates?
  - porkbrain 5y ago
    I am learning simplified Chinese without the pronunciation. "It significantly cuts the amount of memorization." I thought. I am primarily interested in Chinese internet which I believe will open a massive new world, and understanding how this completely different way of expressing oneself works. When I go through a text I understand I either don't sound the words or pronounce broken translation in my mind. I've doubted this approach a few times because, as you say, it's uncommon, but I'm sticking with it and I'm curious what comes out of it in a year or two.
rnoorda 5y ago
I've seen this quite a bit- very educated people who forget how to write characters, but can type them and read them easily. I remember reading years ago about how few college students could correctly write "打喷嚏" (to sneeze) without a computer.
- peterburkimsher 5y ago
  There's a video about not being able to write 打喷嚏 (and some other words) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxHskrqMqII https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxHskrqMqII

lhorie 5y ago

If my wife is any indication, reading does work to retain language (she speaks Mandarin, reads Mandarin novels, and has no problem w/ the language ever after more than a decade living in North America). Conversely, I had a japanese friend in college that fully immersed with non-japanese friends and liked to spend free time going to the movies. She realized after a couple years that she had forgotten how to write the name of train stations in Japan. Use or lose it, seems to be name of the game.

nsf39k 5y ago
Very much so - even if you’re partially immersed. Grew up with immigrant parents where Mandarin was spoken in the household but lived in a area with no other Chinese-Americans. Even though I was exposed to the spoken language daily, I wound up forgetting how to read and write Mandarin by middle school. Did my best to re-learn it but I rarely ever read/write in Mandarin so I would just regress after a bit - by this point I think I’ve re-learned how to read or write basic Mandarin at least three times and have regressed each successive time. Interesting note is that I seem to be significantly faster at re-learning things each time I go back to it, but that might just be constant repetition more than anything.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  > Interesting note is that I seem to be significantly faster at re-learning things each time I go back to it, but that might just be constant repetition more than anything. This is the phenomenon exploited by spaced repetition learning. “Trying to remember” is when you learn things the best. Reading something in Mandarin for a couple of minutes every few days will be better than weeks of effort every few years, even though it's less time spent overall.
Clewza313 5y ago
Chinese characters (used in Japan as well) are interesting in that you frequently have no idea how to write them by hand, but if you use an IME on your phone/computer and can enter it phonetically, you can trivially recognize and select the right one.
jhanschoo 5y ago
I was about to make a comment on the lines of Clewza313's: does your wife retain writing proficiency without the use of a reference?
- lhorie 5y ago
  Yes, she frequents chinese online forums and writes todo lists in Chinese

cycomanic 5y ago

I've been wondering about this; with logographic languages could you read the language without actually thinking the words. Or in other words could you learn to read e.g. Mandarin without ever learning the language.

geza 5y ago
You would likely be interested in Literary Chinese, specifically the way they read it in Japan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanbun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanbun )
quantum_magpie 5y ago
That's how my Japanese friends get around when in Taiwan. According to them, they understand ~95% of everything that's written, but have no idea how to express any of that verbally.
- hnfong 5y ago
  It's the same the other way round. I'm a from Hong Kong and I have no trouble reading Kanji in Japan. Once I learned Katakana (which usually just transliterates English) I can also decode 95+% of the things written. And I can't communicate verbally at all... That said, the voice in my head just pronounces the Japanese Kanji in my native Cantonese...
hnfong 5y ago
In theory you can do that with any language that has a written form (eg. English). Just that it's counter intuitive and nobody does it that way. I doubt anyone _actually_ learns Mandarin without learning how the common characters are pronounced... Unless you don't have to verbally communicate with a teacher / fellow classmates?
- porkbrain 5y ago
  I am learning simplified Chinese without the pronunciation. "It significantly cuts the amount of memorization." I thought. I am primarily interested in Chinese internet which I believe will open a massive new world, and understanding how this completely different way of expressing oneself works. When I go through a text I understand I either don't sound the words or pronounce broken translation in my mind. I've doubted this approach a few times because, as you say, it's uncommon, but I'm sticking with it and I'm curious what comes out of it in a year or two.

rnoorda 5y ago

I've seen this quite a bit- very educated people who forget how to write characters, but can type them and read them easily. I remember reading years ago about how few college students could correctly write "打喷嚏" (to sneeze) without a computer.

peterburkimsher 5y ago
There's a video about not being able to write 打喷嚏 (and some other words) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxHskrqMqII https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxHskrqMqII