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It seems like this question could be asked at any period of social conflict historically in the West. How did ideas that were once extremely radical like women

by badRNG 5y ago

It seems like this question could be asked at any period of social conflict historically in the West. How did ideas that were once extremely radical like women's equality in the social sphere (to include holding office and suffrage), desegregation, slavery abolition, and many more work their way from the intelligensia (academics, philosophers) to the masses? How did "Marxism" jump from academia to workers in the late 19th and early 20th centuries? The fact that businesses are supportive of such causes is somewhat new, but is likely explained by the same forces that lead to the masses embracing these ideas. Largely, this seems to be the molding of our social sphere by market forces. The northern competitors to the agricultural South found slavery abolition to be inline with their material interests. Likewise, as the industrial revolution shook up familial units and proletarianization of women moved wives into the factories, equality in the social sphere was no longer resisted by structures that had a material basis. Desegregation could assist in curbing a growing black nationalist movement through assimilation and a reduction in direct antagonism. Ideas are often forged in the conflicts and conditions of the day that they arise in. Had this article been written in the '90s about the "extreme" gay rights movement, or in the '60s about the "woke" Civil Rights Movement, how many would actually stand by their critique a decade later? Businesses seem to understand that showing token support for progressive issues is better for their brand than silence or reactionary opposition to progressivism (which, let's face it, never holds up well for long.) While I doubt any corporate co-option for social issues actually materially benefits those movements, I can't help but find myself even more cynical about the reactionaries complaining about how "extreme" or "woke" their positions are.

spats1990 5y ago
Yeah, I tend to think "woke" as a sneer word is just the new "PC/politically correct" as a sneer word. Corporations wouldn't be engaging in this kind of token support for progressive issues if they did not believe such issues were broadly popular. Such organizations rarely do anything for free. The token support is a reflection of something in the culture. Most of the "backlash" to "woke stuff" is a working-through of the cognitive dissonance this notion brings for certain people/organizations. They cannot believe that such ideas can have even token support among the broader public. So it gets framed as some sort of virus, or as an orgy of cynical virtue signalling. But in order to virtue signal, you need somebody who understands (and ideally even shares) the virtue that is being signalled. Your entirely reasonable comment being flagged currently is an example of this cognitive dissonance at work. There are many valid critiques of so-called "wokeness" but most of them come from angles that reactionaries generally dislike.
- bopbeepboop 5y ago
  If this were true, Hollywood and sports wouldn’t be seeing record low numbers. Dollars from customers remain a robust measure, even with a culturally detached “elite”. An example is the public supporting Johnny Depp, while the “Woke” are arrayed around Amber Heard and her defamation. It turns out that the public at large doesn’t agree with leftwing misandry — and are repulsed by everyone from the ACLU to Hollywood execs protecting a privileged abuser like Ms Heard. We see some of the same Woke abusers around Andrew Cuomo. Your post seems to be an example of what you’re lamenting: a passionate defense of a bigoted ideology that doesn’t resonate with the general public — being “Woke”. It’s time for leftwing fox bigotry to die.
- luckylion 5y ago
  > Most of the "backlash" to "woke stuff" is a working-through of the cognitive dissonance this notion brings for certain people/organizations. They cannot believe that such ideas can have even token support among the broader public. But that's the thing: a lot of the woke stuff isn't publicly supported. Latinos don't care for "Latinx" [1]. Enforcing more gender-speech in Germany has decreased the support in the general population, also among women. [2] It's the media that is going crazy over it and really, really wants it. And the politicians are willingly following. The electorate does not. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/ https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in... [2] https://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/debatten/grosse-mehrheit-laut-umfrage-gegen-gendersprache-17355174.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/debatten/grosse-mehrh...
  - spats1990 5y ago
    On the first point, a ~recent (2020) poll suggests most Latino people don't even know that "Latinx" is a word. Your post contradicts itself somewhat there. It says "the media are going crazy" over "woke stuff", but seems to make the assumption that "Latinx" is being actively pushed on Latino people, which seems like it isn't true--since if it were, far more of them would actually know it was a word. I suspect the prevalence of "Latinx" in the media is largely due to its being held up so frequently as an example of the putative derangements of wokeness (there are several examples of this in this thread). https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2020-08-11/latinx-pew-poll-latino-hispanic-identity https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2020-08-11/... On the second point, I simply don't know enough about the specifics of that debate, and I can't read German. I remain convinced that corporations specifically show token support for social-progressive issues because they see some benefit to it; that is, they see some amount of broad support for these ideas in society.
EvilEy3 5y ago
> How did "Marxism" jump from academia to workers in the late 19th and early 20th centuries? Easy. Useful idiot to destabilize country. This is how Russian Empire was destroyed and never recovered. Even Germany after two world wars is much better than current CIS countries. Why? Because the red plague forever maimed their progress.

by badRNG 5y ago

spats1990 5y ago

Yeah, I tend to think "woke" as a sneer word is just the new "PC/politically correct" as a sneer word. Corporations wouldn't be engaging in this kind of token support for progressive issues if they did not believe such issues were broadly popular. Such organizations rarely do anything for free. The token support is a reflection of something in the culture. Most of the "backlash" to "woke stuff" is a working-through of the cognitive dissonance this notion brings for certain people/organizations. They cannot believe that such ideas can have even token support among the broader public. So it gets framed as some sort of virus, or as an orgy of cynical virtue signalling. But in order to virtue signal, you need somebody who understands (and ideally even shares) the virtue that is being signalled. Your entirely reasonable comment being flagged currently is an example of this cognitive dissonance at work. There are many valid critiques of so-called "wokeness" but most of them come from angles that reactionaries generally dislike.

bopbeepboop 5y ago
If this were true, Hollywood and sports wouldn’t be seeing record low numbers. Dollars from customers remain a robust measure, even with a culturally detached “elite”. An example is the public supporting Johnny Depp, while the “Woke” are arrayed around Amber Heard and her defamation. It turns out that the public at large doesn’t agree with leftwing misandry — and are repulsed by everyone from the ACLU to Hollywood execs protecting a privileged abuser like Ms Heard. We see some of the same Woke abusers around Andrew Cuomo. Your post seems to be an example of what you’re lamenting: a passionate defense of a bigoted ideology that doesn’t resonate with the general public — being “Woke”. It’s time for leftwing fox bigotry to die.
luckylion 5y ago
> Most of the "backlash" to "woke stuff" is a working-through of the cognitive dissonance this notion brings for certain people/organizations. They cannot believe that such ideas can have even token support among the broader public. But that's the thing: a lot of the woke stuff isn't publicly supported. Latinos don't care for "Latinx" [1]. Enforcing more gender-speech in Germany has decreased the support in the general population, also among women. [2] It's the media that is going crazy over it and really, really wants it. And the politicians are willingly following. The electorate does not. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/ https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in... [2] https://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/debatten/grosse-mehrheit-laut-umfrage-gegen-gendersprache-17355174.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/debatten/grosse-mehrh...
- spats1990 5y ago
  On the first point, a ~recent (2020) poll suggests most Latino people don't even know that "Latinx" is a word. Your post contradicts itself somewhat there. It says "the media are going crazy" over "woke stuff", but seems to make the assumption that "Latinx" is being actively pushed on Latino people, which seems like it isn't true--since if it were, far more of them would actually know it was a word. I suspect the prevalence of "Latinx" in the media is largely due to its being held up so frequently as an example of the putative derangements of wokeness (there are several examples of this in this thread). https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2020-08-11/latinx-pew-poll-latino-hispanic-identity https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2020-08-11/... On the second point, I simply don't know enough about the specifics of that debate, and I can't read German. I remain convinced that corporations specifically show token support for social-progressive issues because they see some benefit to it; that is, they see some amount of broad support for these ideas in society.

EvilEy3 5y ago

> How did "Marxism" jump from academia to workers in the late 19th and early 20th centuries? Easy. Useful idiot to destabilize country. This is how Russian Empire was destroyed and never recovered. Even Germany after two world wars is much better than current CIS countries. Why? Because the red plague forever maimed their progress.