7 ms·

Fundamentally languages have been evolving in a reductive manner, which is why adding syllables to terms like in "Latino/Latina -> Latin-x -> Latinx+" won't las

Fundamentally languages have been evolving in a reductive manner, which is why adding syllables to terms like in "Latino/Latina -> Latin-x -> Latinx+" won't last. People will quickly eschew these terms for things that are easier to pronounce. There's no malice in this - just a natural evolution of language towards efficiency. As such its an endless cycle: new stuff is introduced to everyday language then reduced to something simpler - often using words that fell out of use, shadowing them with new meaning. It's quite possible the new word for "Latinx+", whatever it is, will simply be considered genderless - if societal pressure manages to displace the old terms.

nyolfen 5y ago
the point is not the specific words you use, the point is that you do not have a choice in using them
dragontamer 5y ago
People have been trying to change gender terms forever. It's nothing recent. I recall discussions about the use of the non gendered pronoun 'e' years ago. To replace she vs he.
- buu700 5y ago
  I remember learning about Spivak pronouns from (I believe) reddit some time in the late 00s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun As far as I'm aware, the motivation behind this had nothing to do with social justice for trans people, but more as a potential alternative to the awkward/ambiguous singular they. (Or at least that's how I would've interpreted it back then, having been a teenager with no real concept of or experience with LGBT issues.)
  - jefftk 5y ago
    > a potential alternative to the awkward/ambiguous singular they Spivak pronouns go back a very long way, though they were most popularized in the early '80s by Spivak using them in technical documentation. The popularity of singular they as a general purpose pronoun is much more recent.
- Ma8ee 5y ago
  In English I’ve understood it is common to use a singular they as a non gendered pronoun. In Swedish the newly introduced hen is in quite widespread use instead of han/hon (he/she).
  - cgrealy 5y ago
    It is, but it causes ambiguity. “The politician made a statement to the press. They were shocked” Who does “they” refer to there?
    - notahacker 5y ago
      Exactly the same amount of ambiguity as "The politician addressed Other Male Politician. He was shocked"...
      - concordDance 5y ago
        Yes, but it still substantially reduces the number of ambiguous situations, which is an improvement to the language.
        Ma8ee 5y ago
        If that is your concern, just use the noun. “The politician made a statement to the press. The politician was shocked.” Or if that is too inelegant, reformulate the sentence: “The politician expressed his shock to the press.” Or use the verb to carry the information that you are referring to the singular: “They was shocked.”, but I guess that would be painful to read for some native English speakers.
      - cgrealy 5y ago
        Yeah, but there’s no good solution there. If you use a pronoun that can apply to multiple subjects or objects in a sentence, it will always be ambiguous.
        notahacker 5y ago
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
Gendered nouns are kind of silly and antiquated when you think about it though, and many languages have a neuter gender too (e.g. German). The "X" suffix is an attempt by younger Spanish speakers to introduce a neuter gender to their native language. English doesn't have gendered nouns, but we do have gendered pronouns, which not all languages have. Chinese doesn't have gendered pronouns, which is why you'll often hear native Chinese speakers accidentally refer to a woman in English as "he". Today, young English speakers are trying to popularize "they" as an English neuter pronoun, and it's not too absurd: we already use "they" this way when the gender of the person is unknown. For example, if you found a random wallet, you might say, "Someone lost their wallet," and it would be acceptable. Intentionally changing language isn't unprecedented either: in the 1970s, feminists successfully introduced "Ms." as a female equivalent to "Mr." to denote a woman who may or may not be married, (instead of Miss and Mrs.). Ultimately, most language evolution is driven by young people: they're bending their native tongue to better describe their world. And that's a good thing. Language is supposed to be fluid and dynamic. We shouldn't be constraining our thoughts to a static unchanging language invented by our ancestors to describe their world that no longer exists. It's a tool meant to serve us, we're not meant to limit ourselves to it.
- JCharante 5y ago
  > Chinese doesn't have gendered pronouns, which is why you'll often hear native Chinese speakers accidentally refer to a woman in English as "he". This is interesting because I've heard this explanation before from an international student. You still have 他/he 她/she despite them being pronounced the same, so the gendered pronouns still do exist, but the mistake of switching he/she in conversation is still commonly made. It's not like Vietnamese where Em ấy or Ẻm (both meaning he/she for someone younger than the speaker) where a genderless pronoun is used, and yet I've seen he/she mixed up a lot less often.
  - Hasnep 5y ago
    I guess that if you speak Chinese as a first language you're not expecting to need to distinguish between 他 and 她when speaking, so it's harder to remember when speaking a language that has two different pronunciations. I believe older Chinese used 他as a fever neutral pronoun and using 她 is a fairly recent change to mimic western languages.
concordDance 5y ago
Languages also evolve due to political/social movement pressures. With words taking on new meanings so that the old connotations and slogans can be attached to these new meanings.
projektfu 5y ago
I speak Spanish and frequently talk to native speakers from all over Latin America, given that I use Spanish in my job and have a number of Latin friends. I’ve still yet to meet a native speaker who likes “Latinx”, although I did hear one on the radio once. (A college student).

nyolfen 5y ago

the point is not the specific words you use, the point is that you do not have a choice in using them

dragontamer 5y ago

People have been trying to change gender terms forever. It's nothing recent. I recall discussions about the use of the non gendered pronoun 'e' years ago. To replace she vs he.

buu700 5y ago
I remember learning about Spivak pronouns from (I believe) reddit some time in the late 00s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun As far as I'm aware, the motivation behind this had nothing to do with social justice for trans people, but more as a potential alternative to the awkward/ambiguous singular they. (Or at least that's how I would've interpreted it back then, having been a teenager with no real concept of or experience with LGBT issues.)
- jefftk 5y ago
  > a potential alternative to the awkward/ambiguous singular they Spivak pronouns go back a very long way, though they were most popularized in the early '80s by Spivak using them in technical documentation. The popularity of singular they as a general purpose pronoun is much more recent.
Ma8ee 5y ago
In English I’ve understood it is common to use a singular they as a non gendered pronoun. In Swedish the newly introduced hen is in quite widespread use instead of han/hon (he/she).
- cgrealy 5y ago
  It is, but it causes ambiguity. “The politician made a statement to the press. They were shocked” Who does “they” refer to there?
  - notahacker 5y ago
    Exactly the same amount of ambiguity as "The politician addressed Other Male Politician. He was shocked"...
    - concordDance 5y ago
      Yes, but it still substantially reduces the number of ambiguous situations, which is an improvement to the language.
      - Ma8ee 5y ago
        If that is your concern, just use the noun. “The politician made a statement to the press. The politician was shocked.” Or if that is too inelegant, reformulate the sentence: “The politician expressed his shock to the press.” Or use the verb to carry the information that you are referring to the singular: “They was shocked.”, but I guess that would be painful to read for some native English speakers.
    - cgrealy 5y ago
      Yeah, but there’s no good solution there. If you use a pronoun that can apply to multiple subjects or objects in a sentence, it will always be ambiguous.
      - notahacker 5y ago

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago

Gendered nouns are kind of silly and antiquated when you think about it though, and many languages have a neuter gender too (e.g. German). The "X" suffix is an attempt by younger Spanish speakers to introduce a neuter gender to their native language. English doesn't have gendered nouns, but we do have gendered pronouns, which not all languages have. Chinese doesn't have gendered pronouns, which is why you'll often hear native Chinese speakers accidentally refer to a woman in English as "he". Today, young English speakers are trying to popularize "they" as an English neuter pronoun, and it's not too absurd: we already use "they" this way when the gender of the person is unknown. For example, if you found a random wallet, you might say, "Someone lost their wallet," and it would be acceptable. Intentionally changing language isn't unprecedented either: in the 1970s, feminists successfully introduced "Ms." as a female equivalent to "Mr." to denote a woman who may or may not be married, (instead of Miss and Mrs.). Ultimately, most language evolution is driven by young people: they're bending their native tongue to better describe their world. And that's a good thing. Language is supposed to be fluid and dynamic. We shouldn't be constraining our thoughts to a static unchanging language invented by our ancestors to describe their world that no longer exists. It's a tool meant to serve us, we're not meant to limit ourselves to it.

JCharante 5y ago
> Chinese doesn't have gendered pronouns, which is why you'll often hear native Chinese speakers accidentally refer to a woman in English as "he". This is interesting because I've heard this explanation before from an international student. You still have 他/he 她/she despite them being pronounced the same, so the gendered pronouns still do exist, but the mistake of switching he/she in conversation is still commonly made. It's not like Vietnamese where Em ấy or Ẻm (both meaning he/she for someone younger than the speaker) where a genderless pronoun is used, and yet I've seen he/she mixed up a lot less often.
- Hasnep 5y ago
  I guess that if you speak Chinese as a first language you're not expecting to need to distinguish between 他 and 她when speaking, so it's harder to remember when speaking a language that has two different pronunciations. I believe older Chinese used 他as a fever neutral pronoun and using 她 is a fairly recent change to mimic western languages.

concordDance 5y ago

Languages also evolve due to political/social movement pressures. With words taking on new meanings so that the old connotations and slogans can be attached to these new meanings.

projektfu 5y ago

I speak Spanish and frequently talk to native speakers from all over Latin America, given that I use Spanish in my job and have a number of Latin friends. I’ve still yet to meet a native speaker who likes “Latinx”, although I did hear one on the radio once. (A college student).