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But what about Israel? 60 % of hospitalized patients are vaccinated: > What is clear is that “breakthrough” cases are not the rare events the term implies. As

by vimy 5y ago

But what about Israel? 60 % of hospitalized patients are vaccinated: > What is clear is that “breakthrough” cases are not the rare events the term implies. As of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19, a 31% increase from just 4 days earlier. Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated. Of the vaccinated, 87% were 60 or older. “There are so many breakthrough infections that they dominate and most of the hospitalized patients are actually vaccinated,” says Uri Shalit, a bioinformatician at the Israel Institute of Technology (Technion) who has consulted on COVID-19 for the government. “One of the big stories from Israel [is]: ‘Vaccines work, but not well enough.’ https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vac... Natural immunity offers better protection than the vaccine: > The new analysis relies on the database of Maccabi Healthcare Services, which enrolls about 2.5 million Israelis. The study, led by Tal Patalon and Sivan Gazit at KSM, the system’s research and innovation arm, found in two analyses that never-infected people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people who were previously infected with the coronavirus. In one analysis, comparing more than 32,000 people in the health system, the risk of developing symptomatic COVID-19 was 27 times higher among the vaccinated, and the risk of hospitalization eight times higher. https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on... Disclaimer: I’m vaccinated.

bryan0 5y ago
I’m not sure what your point is since it aligns with these studies, and Israel is strongly encouraging all of its citizens to get vaccinated and get boosters based on the data. Israel has higher vaccinated hospitalizations than the rest of the world because they vaccinated their population, especially the oldest and most vulnerable, very early with pfizer, but it’s been shown in several studies now that pfizer immunity wanes faster than Moderna and apparently AZ (possibly because of dosing). that’s why they are doing a massive booster drive and the US should do the same. As for natural immunity, both vaccinated immunity and natural immunity are great if you can get it! If you’ve had Covid and are vaccinated you are very protected. But whether you were infected with Covid or not, adding vaccination provides order of magnitude benefits.
- vimy 5y ago
  Why would young people take the vaccine if natural immunity protects better? Young people aren't at risk anyway. And the vaccine doesn't stop the spread of Delta. Yes, viral load is lower but lower viral load can still make someone very sick. So only older and vulnerable people should take it to protect themselves. >A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. This is wrong. Correct would be "are less likely than unvaccinated persons without natural immunity to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others" Even more baffling is how everyone seems to ignore we have a cure that works really well! https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-authorizes-monoclonal-antibodies-treatment-covid-19 https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavi... The focus on the vaccine as the only solution is very weird.
  - bryan0 5y ago
    > Why would young people take the vaccine if natural immunity protects better? 1. not everyone has natural immunity. 2. many people don't know whether they were actually infected with Covid or not. 3. It's not always better. (https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr...) 4. because if natural immunity gets you to x% protected there is no downside to taking a vaccine which gets you to (x+y)% protected. > Young people aren't at risk anyway. This is actually completely false. Young people are at less risk. Healthy young people are hospitalized and die of Covid just at a much lower rate. Not only that but they can spread it to older people that are at higher risk. > And the vaccine doesn't stop the spread of Delta Correct. It doesnt stop it (it's now endemic), but it lowers the transmission rate. > This is wrong. Correct would be "are less likely than unvaccinated persons without natural immunity to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others" Nope. Whether naturally infected or not, vaccinated makes you less likely to get Covid. (https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr...) > Even more baffling is how everyone seems to ignore we have a cure that works really well! It's not a cure, monoclonal antibodies are a great treatment that is not ignored, but it's better not to get sick in the first place! from your article: "patients at high risk for disease progression, hospitalizations and emergency room visits occurred in 3% of casirivimab and imdevimab-treated patients on average compared to 9% in placebo-treated patients." That is not a cure. It is a good treatment to take if you need it.

by vimy 5y ago

bryan0 5y ago

I’m not sure what your point is since it aligns with these studies, and Israel is strongly encouraging all of its citizens to get vaccinated and get boosters based on the data. Israel has higher vaccinated hospitalizations than the rest of the world because they vaccinated their population, especially the oldest and most vulnerable, very early with pfizer, but it’s been shown in several studies now that pfizer immunity wanes faster than Moderna and apparently AZ (possibly because of dosing). that’s why they are doing a massive booster drive and the US should do the same. As for natural immunity, both vaccinated immunity and natural immunity are great if you can get it! If you’ve had Covid and are vaccinated you are very protected. But whether you were infected with Covid or not, adding vaccination provides order of magnitude benefits.

vimy 5y ago
Why would young people take the vaccine if natural immunity protects better? Young people aren't at risk anyway. And the vaccine doesn't stop the spread of Delta. Yes, viral load is lower but lower viral load can still make someone very sick. So only older and vulnerable people should take it to protect themselves. >A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. This is wrong. Correct would be "are less likely than unvaccinated persons without natural immunity to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others" Even more baffling is how everyone seems to ignore we have a cure that works really well! https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-authorizes-monoclonal-antibodies-treatment-covid-19 https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavi... The focus on the vaccine as the only solution is very weird.
- bryan0 5y ago
  > Why would young people take the vaccine if natural immunity protects better? 1. not everyone has natural immunity. 2. many people don't know whether they were actually infected with Covid or not. 3. It's not always better. (https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr...) 4. because if natural immunity gets you to x% protected there is no downside to taking a vaccine which gets you to (x+y)% protected. > Young people aren't at risk anyway. This is actually completely false. Young people are at less risk. Healthy young people are hospitalized and die of Covid just at a much lower rate. Not only that but they can spread it to older people that are at higher risk. > And the vaccine doesn't stop the spread of Delta Correct. It doesnt stop it (it's now endemic), but it lowers the transmission rate. > This is wrong. Correct would be "are less likely than unvaccinated persons without natural immunity to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others" Nope. Whether naturally infected or not, vaccinated makes you less likely to get Covid. (https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr...) > Even more baffling is how everyone seems to ignore we have a cure that works really well! It's not a cure, monoclonal antibodies are a great treatment that is not ignored, but it's better not to get sick in the first place! from your article: "patients at high risk for disease progression, hospitalizations and emergency room visits occurred in 3% of casirivimab and imdevimab-treated patients on average compared to 9% in placebo-treated patients." That is not a cure. It is a good treatment to take if you need it.