4 ms·

The described attack is completely unnecessary. Just send colliding images to people on WhatsApp. They go right into Photos, and then to iCloud if that’s enable

The described attack is completely unnecessary. Just send colliding images to people on WhatsApp. They go right into Photos, and then to iCloud if that’s enabled. There’s no reason most people would assume that this is what was happening if somebody sent them some slightly weird looking images. The response to this is “yeah but then a human will review it and nothing will happen to the victim of the attack, because it’s just some slightly blurry ordinary images”. But it ignores to entirely likely harms that could result from that. 1) Law enforcement use it as the basis of getting a search warrant, but conveniently leave the bit about the alerts being false alarms off the warrant application. 2) The list of people who have had CSAM alerts is inevitably leaked to the public, and the victim has to spend the rest of their lives explaining to people like employers why Apple flagged them as possessing child sexual abuse material. At the end of the day, all the gaslighting about “no potential for inadvertent harm” is bs, because it’s my device, so get lost. Go run your anti-privacy software somewhere else, imo.

misnome 5y ago
As I understand it; - Law enforcement doesn't get _anything_ unless it triggers a large number of images that match the perceptual hash - It also needs to match a -private- perceptual hash, that isn't distributed to devices, and so we don't have a reliable way of generating collisions for or even knowing that collisions are generated I mean this whole thing is bad enough on its own without having to artificially manufacture extremely specific scenarios and extrapolating from there to invent hysteric conclusions.
- AmericanChopper 5y ago
  Well if you think a tech giant that’s partnered in a surveillance program with the NSA isn’t going to share anything they feel like with the government, then go ahead as use that as the basis of coming up with your own opinions. But you’re right though, the possibility of the list being leaked and ruining countless innocent lives is the much more likely of the two scenarios I described.
  - misnome 5y ago
    > if you think a tech giant that’s partnered in a surveillance program with the NSA isn’t going to share anything they feel like with the government In that case, nothing is stopping them from scanning everything already uploaded anyway, and nothing is stopping them pushing code to your device to scan it without telling you about it. Nothing is stopping them or the government from making these "lists" anyway. I'm not saying you (or anyone) should trust Apple, but if you already don't - then this changes literally nothing.
    - AmericanChopper 5y ago
      By my own personal assessment it changes the way I view them, because this is the most overtly anti-user, anti-privacy thing they’ve ever done. Perhaps I should have never had any level of trust for them, but you live and learn I guess. Feel free to respond to my point about the alert catalog inevitably being leaked and ruining lives. Or you could just have a go at gaslighting me a little more if you prefer.
      - misnome 5y ago
        Gaslighting? Your proposed scenario is: - Send colliding images - image gets uploaded to icloud automatically - image _also_ collides with private hash <- completely unclear how this happens - Only the colliding images are looked at by apple and are determined to be innocent - user goes on a list (This is an imagined scenario) - User is reported to law enforcement even though the images are innocent (This is an imagined scenario) - Law enforcement uses this hypothetical report to file a warrant (This is an imagined scenario) - Law enforcement uses the hypothetical warrant to extract images that are completely innocent, and somehow build a case around this - The "List", which is entirely a hypothetical of yours, "leaks" (This is an imagined scenario) Which also requires: - Apple does not counter the meaning of "the list" - Apple is not sued for vast quantities of money I expect the first argument is that none of this matters as long as "the idea" is out there, the reputational damage is already done. Except if that's true, then none of this is necessary at all, just make the accusation. So, sure, continue to thread the needle between "They are automatically sending all information to the government, so promises are meaningless" and "This new process, on top of them potentially sending all information to the government, somehow makes it worse". I mean, this is all a million times more difficult and less likely than just, like, sending them CP in the first place. Or uploading it to their Gmail or any other cloud they use. Or just send a report that they have it to the police without actually doing anything.

misnome 5y ago

As I understand it; - Law enforcement doesn't get _anything_ unless it triggers a large number of images that match the perceptual hash - It also needs to match a -private- perceptual hash, that isn't distributed to devices, and so we don't have a reliable way of generating collisions for or even knowing that collisions are generated I mean this whole thing is bad enough on its own without having to artificially manufacture extremely specific scenarios and extrapolating from there to invent hysteric conclusions.

AmericanChopper 5y ago
Well if you think a tech giant that’s partnered in a surveillance program with the NSA isn’t going to share anything they feel like with the government, then go ahead as use that as the basis of coming up with your own opinions. But you’re right though, the possibility of the list being leaked and ruining countless innocent lives is the much more likely of the two scenarios I described.
- misnome 5y ago
  > if you think a tech giant that’s partnered in a surveillance program with the NSA isn’t going to share anything they feel like with the government In that case, nothing is stopping them from scanning everything already uploaded anyway, and nothing is stopping them pushing code to your device to scan it without telling you about it. Nothing is stopping them or the government from making these "lists" anyway. I'm not saying you (or anyone) should trust Apple, but if you already don't - then this changes literally nothing.
  - AmericanChopper 5y ago
    By my own personal assessment it changes the way I view them, because this is the most overtly anti-user, anti-privacy thing they’ve ever done. Perhaps I should have never had any level of trust for them, but you live and learn I guess. Feel free to respond to my point about the alert catalog inevitably being leaked and ruining lives. Or you could just have a go at gaslighting me a little more if you prefer.
    - misnome 5y ago
      Gaslighting? Your proposed scenario is: - Send colliding images - image gets uploaded to icloud automatically - image _also_ collides with private hash <- completely unclear how this happens - Only the colliding images are looked at by apple and are determined to be innocent - user goes on a list (This is an imagined scenario) - User is reported to law enforcement even though the images are innocent (This is an imagined scenario) - Law enforcement uses this hypothetical report to file a warrant (This is an imagined scenario) - Law enforcement uses the hypothetical warrant to extract images that are completely innocent, and somehow build a case around this - The "List", which is entirely a hypothetical of yours, "leaks" (This is an imagined scenario) Which also requires: - Apple does not counter the meaning of "the list" - Apple is not sued for vast quantities of money I expect the first argument is that none of this matters as long as "the idea" is out there, the reputational damage is already done. Except if that's true, then none of this is necessary at all, just make the accusation. So, sure, continue to thread the needle between "They are automatically sending all information to the government, so promises are meaningless" and "This new process, on top of them potentially sending all information to the government, somehow makes it worse". I mean, this is all a million times more difficult and less likely than just, like, sending them CP in the first place. Or uploading it to their Gmail or any other cloud they use. Or just send a report that they have it to the police without actually doing anything.