5 ms·

It would obviously be easier for GNOME to ship an apparently more refined experience when customization possibilities are negligible and basic features are miss

It would obviously be easier for GNOME to ship an apparently more refined experience when customization possibilities are negligible and basic features are missing. One can't even change the fonts of GNOME out of the box without first installing Tweak Tool and even then, you can't change the font of GNOME Shell itself. If you dare customize the CSS to change it, you're implementing "hacks". I wouldn't be surprised if the ability to change fonts was removed from GNOME and GTK. Not to mention that GNOME devs seem to think that volume control slider isn't required in their music app and GNOME file picker still doesn't have thumbnails. So yeah, basic features are missing. https://jayfax.neocities.org/mediocrity/gnome-has-no-thumbnails-in-the-file-picker.html https://jayfax.neocities.org/mediocrity/gnome-has-no-thumbna... Then again, it's probably a useless debate at this point since everything is subjective. I'm confident that one could come up with a desktop environment with windows turned upside down and inside out with colors changing randomly every second and many people would still like it and call it "polished" and "refined".

lavabiopsy 5y ago
In some situations, changing the font could absolutely considered a hack -- this can break apps in subtle ways by messing with the spacing and sizing of elements, and it gets worse if you designed your app for some specific form factor(s). It's perfectly reasonable for an app developer to say they only support certain fonts. I'm sorry if that's disappointing to hear, but every app developer cannot be expected to test their apps with every single font in existence that someone wants to use. The default apps that come with GNOME are designed to be simple and unobtrusive. They're not trying to be a Photoshop or a Final Cut Pro. If you don't like them you are of course free to install and use some other alternative, for example KDE apps should run just fine inside GNOME, and vice versa. I don't have any comments on the file chooser, anything we say is flogging a dead horse. You can search some previous discussions on reddit for all the times that's been discussed (unproductively) over the last 15 years.
- ayushnix 5y ago
  > In some situations, changing the font could absolutely considered a hack I'm eagerly waiting for the day when it becomes impossible to make any sort of customisation at all in GNOME/GTK apps besides what the app developer intends. Now that user themes have been axed, I hope fonts, font size, and icons are axed as well and Adwaita, Cantarell (that's the default GNOME font right?), and GNOME Icons are enforced everywhere. It certainly won't be surprising for me if this happens and things seem to headed in this direction. I'm sorry to see that Jeremy still hasn't figured out that GNOME/GTK isn't a community project and is still trying to engage with their devs about themes even though the recoloring API page clearly says that system themes won't be supported. > for example KDE apps should run just fine inside GNOME, and vice versa Yeah, I doubt that. Even if somehow it does look fine right now, I don't think it will soon. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 > I don't have any comments on the file chooser, anything we say is flogging a dead horse. Yeah, I know. It's pointless to have discussions, especially when the project in question isn't a community project and follows the "look but don't touch" open source model of development.
  - lavabiopsy 5y ago
    That has basically already happened on Windows and Mac and for good reason, so it's actually long overdue to happen on Linux. Apps simply cannot be expected to work with an endlessly growing matrix of user customizations. At some point people have to decide if they are going to prioritize on working on new features, or if they want to prioritize allowing people to change the colors and the fonts in ways that could potentially cause bad breakage. Your stance on the subject might be different from others. Since it's all open source, you can of course patch it and modify it all you want to match your priorities, and the developers have no problem with you doing that (and may even encourage it sometimes). >https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 I'm confused why this was posted or why it makes you think that? Apps don't need to match the theme exactly to work, I use some KDE apps with the default theme and they work fine. >Yeah, I know. It's pointless to have discussions, especially when the project in question isn't a community project and follows the "look but don't touch" open source model of development. If you want to discuss technical issues to solve that, I'd love to, but I am not interested in engaging you further when you make these type of false and inflammatory statements. Your time is worth a lot more than this, please don't spend it doing these things. My point is that the technical issues have already been discussed repeatedly at length, unless you are actively working on implementing this then it seems extremely unlikely that either of us will have anything new to add. So yes, in that sense it is pointless to have discussions, but it's for the opposite reason that you're saying: the community has already had these discussions and done all the "touching" that needed to be done.

lavabiopsy 5y ago

In some situations, changing the font could absolutely considered a hack -- this can break apps in subtle ways by messing with the spacing and sizing of elements, and it gets worse if you designed your app for some specific form factor(s). It's perfectly reasonable for an app developer to say they only support certain fonts. I'm sorry if that's disappointing to hear, but every app developer cannot be expected to test their apps with every single font in existence that someone wants to use. The default apps that come with GNOME are designed to be simple and unobtrusive. They're not trying to be a Photoshop or a Final Cut Pro. If you don't like them you are of course free to install and use some other alternative, for example KDE apps should run just fine inside GNOME, and vice versa. I don't have any comments on the file chooser, anything we say is flogging a dead horse. You can search some previous discussions on reddit for all the times that's been discussed (unproductively) over the last 15 years.

ayushnix 5y ago
> In some situations, changing the font could absolutely considered a hack I'm eagerly waiting for the day when it becomes impossible to make any sort of customisation at all in GNOME/GTK apps besides what the app developer intends. Now that user themes have been axed, I hope fonts, font size, and icons are axed as well and Adwaita, Cantarell (that's the default GNOME font right?), and GNOME Icons are enforced everywhere. It certainly won't be surprising for me if this happens and things seem to headed in this direction. I'm sorry to see that Jeremy still hasn't figured out that GNOME/GTK isn't a community project and is still trying to engage with their devs about themes even though the recoloring API page clearly says that system themes won't be supported. > for example KDE apps should run just fine inside GNOME, and vice versa Yeah, I doubt that. Even if somehow it does look fine right now, I don't think it will soon. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 > I don't have any comments on the file chooser, anything we say is flogging a dead horse. Yeah, I know. It's pointless to have discussions, especially when the project in question isn't a community project and follows the "look but don't touch" open source model of development.
- lavabiopsy 5y ago
  That has basically already happened on Windows and Mac and for good reason, so it's actually long overdue to happen on Linux. Apps simply cannot be expected to work with an endlessly growing matrix of user customizations. At some point people have to decide if they are going to prioritize on working on new features, or if they want to prioritize allowing people to change the colors and the fonts in ways that could potentially cause bad breakage. Your stance on the subject might be different from others. Since it's all open source, you can of course patch it and modify it all you want to match your priorities, and the developers have no problem with you doing that (and may even encourage it sometimes). >https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 I'm confused why this was posted or why it makes you think that? Apps don't need to match the theme exactly to work, I use some KDE apps with the default theme and they work fine. >Yeah, I know. It's pointless to have discussions, especially when the project in question isn't a community project and follows the "look but don't touch" open source model of development. If you want to discuss technical issues to solve that, I'd love to, but I am not interested in engaging you further when you make these type of false and inflammatory statements. Your time is worth a lot more than this, please don't spend it doing these things. My point is that the technical issues have already been discussed repeatedly at length, unless you are actively working on implementing this then it seems extremely unlikely that either of us will have anything new to add. So yes, in that sense it is pointless to have discussions, but it's for the opposite reason that you're saying: the community has already had these discussions and done all the "touching" that needed to be done.