5 ms·

To me, the most important part of unlimited PTO isn't the "unlimitedness" but the fact that it's not something I'm having to log in a system. It's that usually

To me, the most important part of unlimited PTO isn't the "unlimitedness" but the fact that it's not something I'm having to log in a system. It's that usually I can just take off a Friday or a Monday here and there without any issue as long as I give a bit of notice. My company just got rid of unlimited PTO for all the reasons people say they hate it - they didn't think people were taking enough PTO for their health, it was used unfairly, etc... Functionally now though, I have to file paperwork with 3 different groups to have someone approve even a single day off so they can make sure I'm not going over the number of days off that I have in accordance with my level and seniority. Thankfully my manager has essentially told us they don't care and we're still on unlimited because they don't want to do the paperwork either. It's not to say that "unlimited" can't be toxic, but it's easy to forget how onerous other systems can be, which can lead to you taking less time off in the same way. One of my friends is the junior on their team on a fixed PTO system and is being forced to take nearly random days off now in order to have any at all because they didn't get their holiday plans in as early as their more senior team members, so now they're stuck with the dregs. Toxic cultures are gonna be toxic. The framing just changes the mechanism.

sjs7007 5y ago
> It's that usually I can just take off a Friday or a Monday here and there without any issue as long as I give a bit of notice. I have fixed number of days but still can essentially do this. > Functionally now though, I have to file paperwork with 3 different groups to have someone approve even a single day off so they can make sure I'm not going over the number of days off that I have in accordance with my level and seniority. This sounds odd. Why can't you just have a system that tracks number of days and as long as you have the number of days 1-2 days shouldn't be an issue at all. I don't see how switching from unlimited to limited made this approval business necessary at all.
- noirbot 5y ago
  I'm sure it's possible to have a system where this is easy, but giving HR more things to track to prove their value to the company does tend to make no incentive for them to make it trivial. I'm sure systems exist for that that we could buy, but we didn't, so we don't, so someone's got some ad-hoc something in some Oracle DB somewhere, and now taking vacation is an added hassle for my already overworked manager.
  - sjs7007 5y ago
    Then really it's a failure of management at your company, not the limited vacation system.
    - noirbot 5y ago
      Sure, but so is letting "unlimited" just turn into looting by the privileged or some sort of toxic "my manager won't let me take more than a week off". Which is what I've been getting at. People love to condemn Unlimited PTO as some sort of toxic trap, and it certainly can be, but it all comes down to if your HR department is competent and cares. If your management is bad, having fixed PTO isn't going to save you from them.
      - sjs7007 5y ago
        That's just because it's more common the case that employees get screwed by the company than other way round. One easy way to make unlimited really unlimited is by having a reasonable number of mandatory days off like 4 weeks. Then I'll believe unlimited PTO.
        noirbot 5y ago
        I'm not asking you to "believe" in anything. There are just some companies where you can take 4-6 weeks off and some companies where you can't, and which one you're in depends on which team you work on and who your manager and HR rep is more than what they claim their PTO plan is. I hypothetically have almost 5 weeks of days off at my current job and between not having much vacation options because of pandemic and not wanting to just be lazy at home, I haven't used most of it. Should someone from HR just tell me I'm not allowed to work in December now?
    - afarrell 5y ago
      Yes, but HR is sadly considered a cost centre, so that failure of management is sadly quite common.
dwaltrip 5y ago
Why don’t they call it something else then? Maybe “Flexible PTO”? I really don’t like the “unlimited” part of the name. It feels confusing / misleading to me.
- noirbot 5y ago
  Probably because "unlimited" is the relevant part to the part of the company that cares - HR. If it was limited, it would need to be tracked. I get the objection to the fact that you can't literally take 200 days off or whatever, but that just feels like pedantry when at this point the colloquial meaning of "unlimited pto" is fairly clear.
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    That's actually a good point. Maybe it should really be called "take-what-you-need untracked PTO." That conveys the point that nobody in HR is going to keep track of how many days you take off, and that you're actually supposed to take those days. It's too awkward to spin well on the company's jobs page, though.
  - jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
    The colloquial meaning doesn't seem clear at all. Am I OK taking 2 weeks? 3 weeks? 4 weeks? 5 weeks? 6 weeks? 7 weeks? 10 weeks? Which is it, precisely? At what precise number of days does it go from being "a reasonable amount" to "lol are you nuts?"
    - noirbot 5y ago
      I mean, the answer there is "it varies" and "it depends". Probably something around 3-5 weeks. If you need a precise number to feel ok about the situation, the colloquial meaning is going to be enough to tell you you shouldn't work there. I get what you're asking for, but you're essentially just complaining that it's not Static Days PTO, which is a fine opinion to have, but going "I don't think X is clear because it's not Y instead" isn't really a thing. You can dislike what is meant by "Unlimited PTO" and the fact that it's not clear on how many days you can take off, but that doesn't mean it's unclear what Unlimited PTO entails.

sjs7007 5y ago

> It's that usually I can just take off a Friday or a Monday here and there without any issue as long as I give a bit of notice. I have fixed number of days but still can essentially do this. > Functionally now though, I have to file paperwork with 3 different groups to have someone approve even a single day off so they can make sure I'm not going over the number of days off that I have in accordance with my level and seniority. This sounds odd. Why can't you just have a system that tracks number of days and as long as you have the number of days 1-2 days shouldn't be an issue at all. I don't see how switching from unlimited to limited made this approval business necessary at all.

noirbot 5y ago
I'm sure it's possible to have a system where this is easy, but giving HR more things to track to prove their value to the company does tend to make no incentive for them to make it trivial. I'm sure systems exist for that that we could buy, but we didn't, so we don't, so someone's got some ad-hoc something in some Oracle DB somewhere, and now taking vacation is an added hassle for my already overworked manager.
- sjs7007 5y ago
  Then really it's a failure of management at your company, not the limited vacation system.
  - noirbot 5y ago
    Sure, but so is letting "unlimited" just turn into looting by the privileged or some sort of toxic "my manager won't let me take more than a week off". Which is what I've been getting at. People love to condemn Unlimited PTO as some sort of toxic trap, and it certainly can be, but it all comes down to if your HR department is competent and cares. If your management is bad, having fixed PTO isn't going to save you from them.
    - sjs7007 5y ago
      That's just because it's more common the case that employees get screwed by the company than other way round. One easy way to make unlimited really unlimited is by having a reasonable number of mandatory days off like 4 weeks. Then I'll believe unlimited PTO.
      - noirbot 5y ago
        I'm not asking you to "believe" in anything. There are just some companies where you can take 4-6 weeks off and some companies where you can't, and which one you're in depends on which team you work on and who your manager and HR rep is more than what they claim their PTO plan is. I hypothetically have almost 5 weeks of days off at my current job and between not having much vacation options because of pandemic and not wanting to just be lazy at home, I haven't used most of it. Should someone from HR just tell me I'm not allowed to work in December now?
  - afarrell 5y ago
    Yes, but HR is sadly considered a cost centre, so that failure of management is sadly quite common.

dwaltrip 5y ago

Why don’t they call it something else then? Maybe “Flexible PTO”? I really don’t like the “unlimited” part of the name. It feels confusing / misleading to me.

noirbot 5y ago
Probably because "unlimited" is the relevant part to the part of the company that cares - HR. If it was limited, it would need to be tracked. I get the objection to the fact that you can't literally take 200 days off or whatever, but that just feels like pedantry when at this point the colloquial meaning of "unlimited pto" is fairly clear.
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  That's actually a good point. Maybe it should really be called "take-what-you-need untracked PTO." That conveys the point that nobody in HR is going to keep track of how many days you take off, and that you're actually supposed to take those days. It's too awkward to spin well on the company's jobs page, though.
- jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
  The colloquial meaning doesn't seem clear at all. Am I OK taking 2 weeks? 3 weeks? 4 weeks? 5 weeks? 6 weeks? 7 weeks? 10 weeks? Which is it, precisely? At what precise number of days does it go from being "a reasonable amount" to "lol are you nuts?"
  - noirbot 5y ago
    I mean, the answer there is "it varies" and "it depends". Probably something around 3-5 weeks. If you need a precise number to feel ok about the situation, the colloquial meaning is going to be enough to tell you you shouldn't work there. I get what you're asking for, but you're essentially just complaining that it's not Static Days PTO, which is a fine opinion to have, but going "I don't think X is clear because it's not Y instead" isn't really a thing. You can dislike what is meant by "Unlimited PTO" and the fact that it's not clear on how many days you can take off, but that doesn't mean it's unclear what Unlimited PTO entails.