4 ms·

Rust 2021 Celebration and Thanks

39 points by vignesh_warar 5y ago

pjmlp 5y ago
Many thanks for the new edition.
stormbrew 5y ago
I love rust and working in rust has been an incredible experience for me, but I'm probably a really rare case in that I personally hope that the next edition (2023?) does a little weeding of what's included in the prelude rather than being mostly additive. Specifically, the various magical impls of From are a constant thorn in my side when writing practical rust. Specifically: - Error messages if you screw something up with TryFrom tell you your problem was you implemented From<> wrong because of the magical `impl TryFrom<T, Infallible> for T where T: From` which is confusing as hell. I'm of the opinion this should be removed, and maybe add a macro for helping to implement it if you need/want that. - The magical behaviour of `collect` when given a collection of results to produce a result with a collection causes me to work harder overall because it confuses the type inference to the point that you need to throw a type declaration into the most awkward places. This also happens because of an `impl From` that you can't get rid of. Sure, it's nice that occasionally it does something useful quickly and cleanly, but then it makes things confusing the other 80% of the time. Should just be a separate function.
- steveklabnik 5y ago
  collect calls FromIterator, so: let five_fives = std::iter::repeat(5).take(5); // this: let v: Vec<i32> = five_fives.collect(); // is equivalent to this use std::iter::FromIterator; let v = Vec::from_iter(five_fives); if you prefer a function-like form.
- the_duke 5y ago
  > The magical behaviour of `collect` when given a collection of results to produce a result That functionality is incredibly useful though. I use it all the time. But it's also really hard to discover. I've seen quite a few developers be both delighted and very surprised by the possibility. I agree that an extension trait with a dedicated method (like `collect_result`) would probably be better, especially since rust-analyzer can now auto-import traits.
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    Yeah, it's one of those things that feels really cool, but the effect on type inference just isn't worth it imo. The fact that I have to put turbofish in sometimes when I'm not using this magic trick just because it exists is the real problem to me. A lot of my opinion on this is informed by my experience in early-days Ruby and C++ with viable templates. It has the feel of the kinds of magic that I came to find very frustrating in both those languages.
    - ibraheemdev 5y ago
      What's your proposed signature of collect? You have to put a turbofish or type annotation because collect works with any collection implementing FromIterator, not specifically Result. Would you have it only work for Vec?
      - stormbrew 5y ago
        I don't have an issue with having to, somewhere, specify that I want a vec or whatever container. The particular thing I'm talking about comes up when you have a long chain of things that involves both results and collect and the type system now needs me to rule out that I want a Result as well, or even a vec of results. If FromIterator<Result> weren't there I believe I'd be able to get away with specifying the final type at the binding instead of a turbofish more often. The other thing is that fairly frequently my goal with collect isn't really to collect anything but to stop processing on an error. Sometimes I need to do this on a couple of layers and the intermediate vecs are gratuitous storage. So my actual proposal would be more like having a simplified version of `scan` that's specifically for iters of results and then it's two steps: process-until-completion-or-error and eventually down the line collect-into-container if I actually want that. Specifically, the weirdness here is that FromIterator<Result> is an implicit conversion between apple-and-oranges container types. Which is quite unlike most (or even all) other FromIterators and it has a complicated type relationship that makes everything else just slightly worse just to give people an ooh-ahh moment when rust does something they don't understand but is helpful.
steveklabnik 5y ago
If you'd like to learn more about what's in Rust 2021, there will eventually be a blog post when it hits stable, but the edition guide has the details: https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/edition-guide/rust-2021/index.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/edition-guide/rust-2021/in... This edition is deliberately "small" compared to Rust 2018, which was very large. That doesn't mean it wasn't a ton of work, as you can obviously see from the number of people and work done in this post, but it is more "quality of life changes" than "major new syntax and huge new features." More "stuff I expected to work that used to not work now works" and less "I need to learn this new shiny thing." Those of you who have been waiting for Rust to slow down a bit, this is one example of how that's happening.
the_duke 5y ago
The 2021 edition, while a breaking change, will affect only a tiny amount of code. Most crates will be able to put `edition = "2021"` into Cargo.toml without any other modiciations. Only some relatively minor parsing and semantics changes were introduced. It's not nearly as big as the 2018 edition, which brought big changes to the module and macro system. Mostly some quality of life improvements. Also note that the Rust compiler remains backwards compatible and continues to support all previous editions. (well, it's only 2015 and 2018 for now) Lot's of work is put into the compiler, but a lot of it is refinement and plumbing at the moment. Big feature work has slowed down a lot (which is probably a good thing). But as some positive news: GAT (generic associated types, a more restrictive variant of higher kinded types) are apparently nearing completion, which can also unblock some very important improvements for the async world (eg `async fn` in traits). I do still really miss some big features though: async in traits, a more flexible dynamic trait system (multi-trait objects, downcasting), generators and specialization.

39 points by vignesh_warar 5y ago

Many thanks for the new edition.

I love rust and working in rust has been an incredible experience for me, but I'm probably a really rare case in that I personally hope that the next edition (2023?) does a little weeding of what's included in the prelude rather than being mostly additive. Specifically, the various magical impls of From are a constant thorn in my side when writing practical rust. Specifically: - Error messages if you screw something up with TryFrom tell you your problem was you implemented From<> wrong because of the magical `impl TryFrom<T, Infallible> for T where T: From` which is confusing as hell. I'm of the opinion this should be removed, and maybe add a macro for helping to implement it if you need/want that. - The magical behaviour of `collect` when given a collection of results to produce a result with a collection causes me to work harder overall because it confuses the type inference to the point that you need to throw a type declaration into the most awkward places. This also happens because of an `impl From` that you can't get rid of. Sure, it's nice that occasionally it does something useful quickly and cleanly, but then it makes things confusing the other 80% of the time. Should just be a separate function.

steveklabnik 5y ago
collect calls FromIterator, so: let five_fives = std::iter::repeat(5).take(5); // this: let v: Vec<i32> = five_fives.collect(); // is equivalent to this use std::iter::FromIterator; let v = Vec::from_iter(five_fives); if you prefer a function-like form.
the_duke 5y ago
> The magical behaviour of `collect` when given a collection of results to produce a result That functionality is incredibly useful though. I use it all the time. But it's also really hard to discover. I've seen quite a few developers be both delighted and very surprised by the possibility. I agree that an extension trait with a dedicated method (like `collect_result`) would probably be better, especially since rust-analyzer can now auto-import traits.
- stormbrew 5y ago
  Yeah, it's one of those things that feels really cool, but the effect on type inference just isn't worth it imo. The fact that I have to put turbofish in sometimes when I'm not using this magic trick just because it exists is the real problem to me. A lot of my opinion on this is informed by my experience in early-days Ruby and C++ with viable templates. It has the feel of the kinds of magic that I came to find very frustrating in both those languages.
  - ibraheemdev 5y ago
    What's your proposed signature of collect? You have to put a turbofish or type annotation because collect works with any collection implementing FromIterator, not specifically Result. Would you have it only work for Vec?
    - stormbrew 5y ago
      I don't have an issue with having to, somewhere, specify that I want a vec or whatever container. The particular thing I'm talking about comes up when you have a long chain of things that involves both results and collect and the type system now needs me to rule out that I want a Result as well, or even a vec of results. If FromIterator<Result> weren't there I believe I'd be able to get away with specifying the final type at the binding instead of a turbofish more often. The other thing is that fairly frequently my goal with collect isn't really to collect anything but to stop processing on an error. Sometimes I need to do this on a couple of layers and the intermediate vecs are gratuitous storage. So my actual proposal would be more like having a simplified version of `scan` that's specifically for iters of results and then it's two steps: process-until-completion-or-error and eventually down the line collect-into-container if I actually want that. Specifically, the weirdness here is that FromIterator<Result> is an implicit conversion between apple-and-oranges container types. Which is quite unlike most (or even all) other FromIterators and it has a complicated type relationship that makes everything else just slightly worse just to give people an ooh-ahh moment when rust does something they don't understand but is helpful.

steveklabnik 5y ago

If you'd like to learn more about what's in Rust 2021, there will eventually be a blog post when it hits stable, but the edition guide has the details: https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/edition-guide/rust-2021/index.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/edition-guide/rust-2021/in... This edition is deliberately "small" compared to Rust 2018, which was very large. That doesn't mean it wasn't a ton of work, as you can obviously see from the number of people and work done in this post, but it is more "quality of life changes" than "major new syntax and huge new features." More "stuff I expected to work that used to not work now works" and less "I need to learn this new shiny thing." Those of you who have been waiting for Rust to slow down a bit, this is one example of how that's happening.

the_duke 5y ago

The 2021 edition, while a breaking change, will affect only a tiny amount of code. Most crates will be able to put `edition = "2021"` into Cargo.toml without any other modiciations. Only some relatively minor parsing and semantics changes were introduced. It's not nearly as big as the 2018 edition, which brought big changes to the module and macro system. Mostly some quality of life improvements. Also note that the Rust compiler remains backwards compatible and continues to support all previous editions. (well, it's only 2015 and 2018 for now) Lot's of work is put into the compiler, but a lot of it is refinement and plumbing at the moment. Big feature work has slowed down a lot (which is probably a good thing). But as some positive news: GAT (generic associated types, a more restrictive variant of higher kinded types) are apparently nearing completion, which can also unblock some very important improvements for the async world (eg `async fn` in traits). I do still really miss some big features though: async in traits, a more flexible dynamic trait system (multi-trait objects, downcasting), generators and specialization.