8 ms·

McDonald’s unreliable ice cream machines reportedly under FTC investigation

robervin 5y ago
Johnny Harris has a pretty good video about this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4
- neom 5y ago
  It is a good watch. Leonard French did a good synopsis of the case (Kytch v. Taylor) for the startup referenced in the Johnny Harris video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXwD_HeC8Ms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXwD_HeC8Ms
- ghostbrainalpha 5y ago
  The way he takes everything so seriously, but doesn't become a joke himself. I love that dude's style. I hope he gets funding to do a major show on Discovery Channel or something some day. He could be the David Attenborough of interesting but trival things.
- skmurphy 5y ago
  thanks for posting it, this is first class journalism.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Chiming in to say thanks, that's excellent, and I'm impressed by the reporting and investigation. (TL;DR: Exclusive support contracts and recurring revenues.)
ProfessorLayton 5y ago
What I still don't understand about this whole situation is why McDonalds corporate would allow this to happen in the first place. Is the profiteering on the contracts with the vendor actually higher than the lost sales from having these machines unavailable so often? Is it worth marring your reputation with unreliable service? One of the appeals of fast food is consistency, that's what the franchise is supposed to provide. Is it worth ceding this product to your competitors, who don't have as many issues providing it? I must be missing something here.
- DangitBobby 5y ago
  > Is it worth marring your reputation with unreliable service? McDonald's seems to be doing just fine. Even so, you know as well as I do that short term profits trump long term health of the company.
  - ProfessorLayton 5y ago
    I wasn't trying to imply that this is hurting corporate as a whole, but questioning why take this particular hit in the first place. I'm also questioning if the status quo really is more profitable than actually selling the product. Is it really profitable to do this at all? Because the competition doesn't seem to be doing it.
    - DangitBobby 5y ago
      The franchise owners are the ones who primarily get hurt from not being able to move product, not corporate. As long as being a franchise owner is still perceived as a viable way to make a living and the kickbacms they get from the arrangement outweigh their percentage of lost sales volume, what does corporate care?
  - avidiax 5y ago
    Yes, or the franchise equipment team books lots of k̶i̶c̶k̶b̶a̶c̶k̶s̶ partner revenue and the customer satisfaction team can't or doesn't want to show that unavailable ice cream hurts sales.
paxys 5y ago
> The WSJ reported that McDonald’s ice cream products account for 60% of the franchise’s revenue. Is anyone else really surprised by this number? 60%??
- jjulius 5y ago
  This article poorly references the original WSJ source article that it links to. From the source: "The shiny metal machines crank out concoctions that account for about 60% of the chain’s dessert sales in the U.S., according to a consumer survey by research firm Technomic Inc." https://archive.is/QQHsS https://archive.is/QQHsS
  - spoonjim 5y ago
    I didn’t even know they had other desserts.
    - isk517 5y ago
      They've always had apple pies as long as I can remember.
      - twicetwice 5y ago
        They're actually quite tasty, too!
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
vondur 5y ago
This investigation deals with an add on device some restaurants were using to monitor the machines which the manufacturer claims can harm it and seeks to stop its use. I used to work fast food many years ago and we never really had issues with ours. We did however clean and disinfect them nightly.
cmckn 5y ago
I think the "machine is always broken" meme is mostly confirmation bias. I can't even remember the last time I swung through McDonalds for a cone and the machine was down. It's probably been 5 years. Not that I do this very often, but still. Obviously, if you pull up within an ~hour of closing, the supervisor may have made the call to go ahead and start the lengthy cleaning cycle, and ice cream isn't available. You'll find that many other menu items aren't available under these circumstances either. Worth the FTC investigating? I doubt it. edit: I wasn't aware of the racket that is the ice cream machine business -- apparently franchises pay for expensive support contracts and the inner workings of the machine is a closely guarded trade secret.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bretpiatt 5y ago
  Here's actual data: https://mcbroken.com/ https://mcbroken.com/ As of my posting: 9.73% overall Currently Broken (all locations), 28.57% in New York, 18.75% in Seattle, 17.95% in Philadelphia, 17.74% in Houston, 16.36% in Dallas, 13.79% in Phoenix
  - cmckn 5y ago
    I don't really have any way to contextualize these rates -- like how often is the Icee machine at 7-11 down? 30% is definitely crazy high, though. Would love to see it broken down by franchises, because I'd wager that the machine is out more often at specific locations.
    - hadlock 5y ago
      Generally commercial/industrial grade equipment has an uptime measured in 9s, the only time it goes down is during scheduled maintenance. When was the last time you ordered french fries and they told you "our french frier is out" or "sorry we're not serving burgers today, the grill is down". The main failure mode for this device is in the automated nightly sterilization process. Granted, this ice cream machine is pretty complex, it basically autoclaves itself at medium/high pressure nightly to sterilize any residual dairy mix, but it's well documented that the failures caused by the autoclaving process could be fixed with a couple of small changes. Even without these improvements, the machines could be user serviceable with better error codes. It's not completely air tight case against the manufacturer wanting more maintenance revenue, but the FTC certainly has enough evidence to go investigate further.
danhon 5y ago
Linked article: "An error on a Taylor ice cream machine could look something like this: "ERROR: XSndhUIF LHPR>45F 1HR LPROD too VISC," according to WSJ. Taylor rebutted and said any codes that appear on its machines can be easily found in the machine’s manual." Hm, what does this remind me of? “But the plans were on display…" “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
- scrollaway 5y ago
  Where is that little story from? Sounds fun
  - cornstalks 5y ago
    The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - awesomeusername 5y ago
    Omg you get to enjoy HHGTTG fresh for the first time! Lucky you. Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, Douglass Adams
    - sopooneo 5y ago
      "...Ahhhh now I get all the 42 references"
    - scrollaway 5y ago
      Hah I figured it might be. I've only read bits of it. It's on the list... Saving it for a rainy day :)
KindOne 5y ago
Related discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24861623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24861623 - October 2020 - "I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API" - (Orders ice cream at every McDonalds to see if the machines are broken) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26936774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26936774 - April 2021 - "Investigating why McDonald's ice cream machines are often broken [video]" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28386567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28386567 - 1 day ago - "The Feds Want to Know What the McFuck Is Going on with the McFlurry Machines"
krony 5y ago
The joke in college was that our dorm snackbar icecream machine was always "broken" on the night when my friends worked there. I just assumed McDonald's had the same issue where the manager on that shift just didn't want to deal with cleaning it later and marked it broken.
- fsckboy 5y ago
  on reddit, numerous fast food workers have chimed in to say that it's not true, the machines are easy to clean, and it's a normal part of the job and management wouldn't let them get away with not cleaning them
  - twicetwice 5y ago
    I worked at an ice cream shop and cleaning our soft serve machine was always a miserable chore that no one wanted to do.
    - fsckboy 5y ago
      i think the fast food chain restaurants have streamlined it, compared to a mom and pop shoppe
sayhar 5y ago
Matt Stoller pretty convincingly lays out why this is a monopoly issue here: https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/what-broken-mcdonalds-ice-cream-machines https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/what-broken-mcdonalds-ice...
dredmorbius 5y ago
Dupe: 236 points 153 comments 1 day ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28386567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28386567 KTVU's coverage is a rehash of an earlier WSJ article. Numerous others, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28408579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28408579

Johnny Harris has a pretty good video about this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4

neom 5y ago
It is a good watch. Leonard French did a good synopsis of the case (Kytch v. Taylor) for the startup referenced in the Johnny Harris video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXwD_HeC8Ms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXwD_HeC8Ms
ghostbrainalpha 5y ago
The way he takes everything so seriously, but doesn't become a joke himself. I love that dude's style. I hope he gets funding to do a major show on Discovery Channel or something some day. He could be the David Attenborough of interesting but trival things.
skmurphy 5y ago
thanks for posting it, this is first class journalism.
dredmorbius 5y ago
Chiming in to say thanks, that's excellent, and I'm impressed by the reporting and investigation. (TL;DR: Exclusive support contracts and recurring revenues.)

ProfessorLayton 5y ago

What I still don't understand about this whole situation is why McDonalds corporate would allow this to happen in the first place. Is the profiteering on the contracts with the vendor actually higher than the lost sales from having these machines unavailable so often? Is it worth marring your reputation with unreliable service? One of the appeals of fast food is consistency, that's what the franchise is supposed to provide. Is it worth ceding this product to your competitors, who don't have as many issues providing it? I must be missing something here.

DangitBobby 5y ago
> Is it worth marring your reputation with unreliable service? McDonald's seems to be doing just fine. Even so, you know as well as I do that short term profits trump long term health of the company.
- ProfessorLayton 5y ago
  I wasn't trying to imply that this is hurting corporate as a whole, but questioning why take this particular hit in the first place. I'm also questioning if the status quo really is more profitable than actually selling the product. Is it really profitable to do this at all? Because the competition doesn't seem to be doing it.
  - DangitBobby 5y ago
    The franchise owners are the ones who primarily get hurt from not being able to move product, not corporate. As long as being a franchise owner is still perceived as a viable way to make a living and the kickbacms they get from the arrangement outweigh their percentage of lost sales volume, what does corporate care?
- avidiax 5y ago
  Yes, or the franchise equipment team books lots of k̶i̶c̶k̶b̶a̶c̶k̶s̶ partner revenue and the customer satisfaction team can't or doesn't want to show that unavailable ice cream hurts sales.

paxys 5y ago

> The WSJ reported that McDonald’s ice cream products account for 60% of the franchise’s revenue. Is anyone else really surprised by this number? 60%??

jjulius 5y ago
This article poorly references the original WSJ source article that it links to. From the source: "The shiny metal machines crank out concoctions that account for about 60% of the chain’s dessert sales in the U.S., according to a consumer survey by research firm Technomic Inc." https://archive.is/QQHsS https://archive.is/QQHsS
- spoonjim 5y ago
  I didn’t even know they had other desserts.
  - isk517 5y ago
    They've always had apple pies as long as I can remember.
    - twicetwice 5y ago
      They're actually quite tasty, too!
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

vondur 5y ago

This investigation deals with an add on device some restaurants were using to monitor the machines which the manufacturer claims can harm it and seeks to stop its use. I used to work fast food many years ago and we never really had issues with ours. We did however clean and disinfect them nightly.

cmckn 5y ago

I think the "machine is always broken" meme is mostly confirmation bias. I can't even remember the last time I swung through McDonalds for a cone and the machine was down. It's probably been 5 years. Not that I do this very often, but still. Obviously, if you pull up within an ~hour of closing, the supervisor may have made the call to go ahead and start the lengthy cleaning cycle, and ice cream isn't available. You'll find that many other menu items aren't available under these circumstances either. Worth the FTC investigating? I doubt it. edit: I wasn't aware of the racket that is the ice cream machine business -- apparently franchises pay for expensive support contracts and the inner workings of the machine is a closely guarded trade secret.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bretpiatt 5y ago
Here's actual data: https://mcbroken.com/ https://mcbroken.com/ As of my posting: 9.73% overall Currently Broken (all locations), 28.57% in New York, 18.75% in Seattle, 17.95% in Philadelphia, 17.74% in Houston, 16.36% in Dallas, 13.79% in Phoenix
- cmckn 5y ago
  I don't really have any way to contextualize these rates -- like how often is the Icee machine at 7-11 down? 30% is definitely crazy high, though. Would love to see it broken down by franchises, because I'd wager that the machine is out more often at specific locations.
  - hadlock 5y ago
    Generally commercial/industrial grade equipment has an uptime measured in 9s, the only time it goes down is during scheduled maintenance. When was the last time you ordered french fries and they told you "our french frier is out" or "sorry we're not serving burgers today, the grill is down". The main failure mode for this device is in the automated nightly sterilization process. Granted, this ice cream machine is pretty complex, it basically autoclaves itself at medium/high pressure nightly to sterilize any residual dairy mix, but it's well documented that the failures caused by the autoclaving process could be fixed with a couple of small changes. Even without these improvements, the machines could be user serviceable with better error codes. It's not completely air tight case against the manufacturer wanting more maintenance revenue, but the FTC certainly has enough evidence to go investigate further.

danhon 5y ago

Linked article: "An error on a Taylor ice cream machine could look something like this: "ERROR: XSndhUIF LHPR>45F 1HR LPROD too VISC," according to WSJ. Taylor rebutted and said any codes that appear on its machines can be easily found in the machine’s manual." Hm, what does this remind me of? “But the plans were on display…" “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

scrollaway 5y ago
Where is that little story from? Sounds fun
- cornstalks 5y ago
  The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- awesomeusername 5y ago
  Omg you get to enjoy HHGTTG fresh for the first time! Lucky you. Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, Douglass Adams
  - sopooneo 5y ago
    "...Ahhhh now I get all the 42 references"
  - scrollaway 5y ago
    Hah I figured it might be. I've only read bits of it. It's on the list... Saving it for a rainy day :)

KindOne 5y ago

Related discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24861623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24861623 - October 2020 - "I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API" - (Orders ice cream at every McDonalds to see if the machines are broken) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26936774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26936774 - April 2021 - "Investigating why McDonald's ice cream machines are often broken [video]" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28386567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28386567 - 1 day ago - "The Feds Want to Know What the McFuck Is Going on with the McFlurry Machines"

krony 5y ago

The joke in college was that our dorm snackbar icecream machine was always "broken" on the night when my friends worked there. I just assumed McDonald's had the same issue where the manager on that shift just didn't want to deal with cleaning it later and marked it broken.

fsckboy 5y ago
on reddit, numerous fast food workers have chimed in to say that it's not true, the machines are easy to clean, and it's a normal part of the job and management wouldn't let them get away with not cleaning them
- twicetwice 5y ago
  I worked at an ice cream shop and cleaning our soft serve machine was always a miserable chore that no one wanted to do.
  - fsckboy 5y ago
    i think the fast food chain restaurants have streamlined it, compared to a mom and pop shoppe

sayhar 5y ago

Matt Stoller pretty convincingly lays out why this is a monopoly issue here: https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/what-broken-mcdonalds-ice-cream-machines https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/what-broken-mcdonalds-ice...

dredmorbius 5y ago

Dupe: 236 points 153 comments 1 day ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28386567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28386567 KTVU's coverage is a rehash of an earlier WSJ article. Numerous others, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28408579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28408579