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I think there's an unspoken assumption that photos are only the first part of this scanning exercise. IMO, Apple will likely end up scanning all content you cho

I think there's an unspoken assumption that photos are only the first part of this scanning exercise. IMO, Apple will likely end up scanning all content you choose to put on their servers. Tangentially, I think keeping their servers clear of illegal material is actually Apple's main motivation. This, in turn, supports claims made by nay-sayers that Apple could scan for other types of images/content in more repressive countries (but not necessarily report the people who did it). However, this assumption also contradicts arguments that Apple will start scanning for pictures of (e.g.) drugs, or weapons. Such images are not inherently illegal and therefore of no interest to Apple.

misnome 5y ago
> Tangentially, I think keeping their servers clear of illegal material is actually Apple's main motivation My guess about this whole debacle is that - with pressure from the government to scan their cloud storage - that this is the alternate scenario to avoid giving up (or being forced to) the "encryption" guarantees of their cloud. I'm not sure what technical process they have in place to "only decrypt with valid law enforcement requests" or allow account rescue, but it seems likely that not just any employee can view whatever they want, before or after this system. Saying that I can maybe see a way the pressures are on this doesn't mean that I'm saying this is a good solution though. Clearly technically implementing this is opening a can of worms that can't really be closed again and makes a lot of other scenarios "closer". Also, evidently, people are a lot more comfortable with the idea of them actively scanning stuff people store in the cloud than transmitting the information in a side channel so they don't even need to handle decrypted data without a hit.
- skoskie 5y ago
  > My guess about this whole debacle is that - with pressure from the government to scan their cloud storage - that this is the alternate scenario to avoid giving up (or being forced to) the "encryption" guarantees of their cloud. This is exactly the case. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/12/senate-judiciary-committee-wants-everyone-know-its-concerned-about-encryption https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/12/senate-judiciary-commi... > I'm not sure what technical process they have in place to "only decrypt with valid law enforcement requests" or allow account rescue, but it seems likely that not just any employee can view whatever they want, before or after this system. They have master keys that can be used to decrypt almost everything you upload. They can be compelled to decrypt and turn over information on anyone. Another (unsourced) comment in this thread indicated they do so 30,000 times per year. The new encryption scheme will effectively stop this for photos, and no doubt other files in the future. Apple's side will begin using shared key encryption, which will require ALL ~31 keys to decrypt the offending images. The decryption keys are only generated on-device, and only from a hash that results from a CSAM match. The other photos, simply won't have the decryption keys generated, so they don't even exist. As an interesting side note, this means that a person who surpasses the CSAM threshold will still only reveal the images that actually match the CSAM database. Every other image, including those that have CSAM unknown to authorities remain encrypted. This is hardly a big win for the big scary government. They now have far less ability to search for evidence of any other crimes. You could upload video of your bank robbery to iCloud, and as long as your personal device remains secure, nobody will know.
dwaite 5y ago
> IMO, Apple will likely end up scanning all content you choose to put on their servers. Even if that was a goal (and I would argue they have a hard stance against it), this system as built is not usable for that. While they can scan locally, every step of recording, thresholds, and subsequent automated/manual auditing is built to require content to be uploaded to iCloud Photos.
- skoskie 5y ago
  I agree that the current photo scanning system won't work for other types of files. Further, I don't think they really even need to scan text files except to see if it's actually a filetype that should be scanned. And they can already easily scan music and such, but have shown no interest in it from a legal standpoint. Video seems like a prime candidate for the next generation of this tech. And I very much think they will be able to do that before the decade is over.

misnome 5y ago

> Tangentially, I think keeping their servers clear of illegal material is actually Apple's main motivation My guess about this whole debacle is that - with pressure from the government to scan their cloud storage - that this is the alternate scenario to avoid giving up (or being forced to) the "encryption" guarantees of their cloud. I'm not sure what technical process they have in place to "only decrypt with valid law enforcement requests" or allow account rescue, but it seems likely that not just any employee can view whatever they want, before or after this system. Saying that I can maybe see a way the pressures are on this doesn't mean that I'm saying this is a good solution though. Clearly technically implementing this is opening a can of worms that can't really be closed again and makes a lot of other scenarios "closer". Also, evidently, people are a lot more comfortable with the idea of them actively scanning stuff people store in the cloud than transmitting the information in a side channel so they don't even need to handle decrypted data without a hit.

skoskie 5y ago
> My guess about this whole debacle is that - with pressure from the government to scan their cloud storage - that this is the alternate scenario to avoid giving up (or being forced to) the "encryption" guarantees of their cloud. This is exactly the case. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/12/senate-judiciary-committee-wants-everyone-know-its-concerned-about-encryption https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/12/senate-judiciary-commi... > I'm not sure what technical process they have in place to "only decrypt with valid law enforcement requests" or allow account rescue, but it seems likely that not just any employee can view whatever they want, before or after this system. They have master keys that can be used to decrypt almost everything you upload. They can be compelled to decrypt and turn over information on anyone. Another (unsourced) comment in this thread indicated they do so 30,000 times per year. The new encryption scheme will effectively stop this for photos, and no doubt other files in the future. Apple's side will begin using shared key encryption, which will require ALL ~31 keys to decrypt the offending images. The decryption keys are only generated on-device, and only from a hash that results from a CSAM match. The other photos, simply won't have the decryption keys generated, so they don't even exist. As an interesting side note, this means that a person who surpasses the CSAM threshold will still only reveal the images that actually match the CSAM database. Every other image, including those that have CSAM unknown to authorities remain encrypted. This is hardly a big win for the big scary government. They now have far less ability to search for evidence of any other crimes. You could upload video of your bank robbery to iCloud, and as long as your personal device remains secure, nobody will know.

dwaite 5y ago

> IMO, Apple will likely end up scanning all content you choose to put on their servers. Even if that was a goal (and I would argue they have a hard stance against it), this system as built is not usable for that. While they can scan locally, every step of recording, thresholds, and subsequent automated/manual auditing is built to require content to be uploaded to iCloud Photos.

skoskie 5y ago
I agree that the current photo scanning system won't work for other types of files. Further, I don't think they really even need to scan text files except to see if it's actually a filetype that should be scanned. And they can already easily scan music and such, but have shown no interest in it from a legal standpoint. Video seems like a prime candidate for the next generation of this tech. And I very much think they will be able to do that before the decade is over.