14 ms·

I'm curious what those are. If they're around the UI, I've found Cinnamon is a really good approximation.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
I'm already getting downvotes just for mentioning the things I've already mentioned. Unfortunately this is the common reaction whenever anyone brings up having problems with the way Linux Desktop does things. It's apparently ok to complain about lacking hardware support because that's a problem people can dismiss easily with "just buy different hardware", but if you say something like you don't want to use Linux because you think package management is a stupid way to manage applications then people just want you to shut up.
- arepublicadoceu 5y ago
  > but if you say something like you don't want to use Linux because you think package management is a stupid way to manage applications then people just want you to shut up. In my experience people respond better when you actually explain and provides arguments to why you think “package management is a stupid way to manage applications” and not simply say this blanket statement. For instance, I believe that *not* having a package system is a stupid way to manage applications because: - you have to trust many more parties than a single repository; - you incentivize people to do unsafe things like running downloaded exes from sites; - now you need to also trust that no one tampered with the websites and have to manually checksum and verify authenticity of each application whereas a good package manager should do this for you; - Removing applications without package managers is a worse experience. Now I would love to hear your arguments and, maybe, change my mind.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    > In my experience people respond better when you actually explain and provides arguments to why you think “package management is a stupid way to manage applications” and not simply say this blanket statement. I have done this many times on HN, and it almost universally results in downvoting. > Now I would love to hear your arguments and, maybe, change my mind. Fine, whatever. I don't need the fake internet points. Let me start by saying my complaints here are specifically in regards to the way Linux packages, repos, and managers work to avoid someone from Haiku showing up to tell me I'm wrong: - Repos are no better than walled gardens except that they are typically maintained by unpaid third parties - Said unpaid third parties sometimes introduce bugs or arbitrary changes to the software - You can't install applications to different disks or have multiple versions of the same application - Copying applications from one computer to another is massively complicated because most package managers never consider this use case at all - Package managers encourage the kind of interdependency hell and reliance on fixed paths that makes them necessary in the first place - The proliferation of package formats and package managers has made packaging binaries for Linux an incredible pain in the ass To address your points specifically: > - you have to trust many more parties than a single repository; This is true even in the repo world. You have to trust the developer of the application and the maintainer of the package for that repo at the very least. There is no reason someone cannot curate a repository of software that is not managed by and tied to a package manager and, in fact, there are many of these to choose from. > - you incentivize people to do unsafe things like running downloaded exes from sites; Yes, but I think that speaks to a failure of non-mobile OSs to implement proper application sandboxing once the internet became the dominant distribution medium for applications. I also think this threat is given far too much weight in comparison to being constrained in your choice of software. > - now you need to also trust that no one tampered with the websites and have to manually checksum and verify authenticity of each application whereas a good package manager should do this for you; Yes. Again, I don't think this is a big deal, especially when compared to restricting my choice in software. The thing I think makes personal computers valuable is that people can install pretty much whatever they want, make their own stuff, and easily pass it around. Package management and repos overcomplicates this. > - Removing applications without package managers is a worse experience. Only under "installer/uninstaller" paradigms. "Portable Applications" in Windows, or Application Bundles on Mac or NeXT, or the original Macintosh's single-file applications, or RiscOS AppDirs, or even DOS's buncha-files-ina-folder paradigm make removing an application as simple as deleting a single object. Not to mention they make copying or moving applications, or running them on different media, as trivial as any file operation. I probably won't change your mind as a lot of this is subjective, equally your arguments do not sway me. Suffice it to say, the Linux community agrees with you, and that is part of the reason I don't want to use Linux.
    - joshuaissac 5y ago
      You can use the "buncha-files-ina-folder paradigm" on Linux and Unix as well, but generally, applications are written with the assumption that they will be installed at a particular location, and can unexpectedly fail if you put them elsewhere. The RPM Package Manager itself is an example of this. It can be configured to be installed to a custom location via the build system, but it has hard-coded paths in some scripts so the package manager would break when it hits this code months after appearing to work correctly.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
        Right, theoretically Linux applications can work this way, there's even AppImage to really prove the point. The problem is that basically nothing in the Linux world does do that because it just isn't the way things are done. At the end of the day, it's the same difference to me.
        guerrilla 5y ago
        Do you know about Snap and Flatpack? I think the latter may solve some of your problems. 1. https://snapcraft.io/ https://snapcraft.io/ 2. https://www.flatpak.org/ https://www.flatpak.org/
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28409524 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28409524
    - asddubs 5y ago
      good news for you is that linux is moving a bit more and more towards the portable application paradigm, with things like snap packages and AppImage. E.g. for texstudio I found that the version in my repos was outdated, so I just downloaded an AppImage file off their website and am using that now. Same for ultimaker cura. And you can use multiple versions in parallel.
- not_kurt_godel 5y ago
  You've made 4 posts bashing on Linux with more complaints about supposedly being attacked than actual substance about why you don't like Linux. Could it be that the backlash you're getting is a self-fulfilling prophecy? At any rate, I would be genuinely curious to hear what specifically you don't like about Linux beyond tautological statements like not liking its paradigms and calling package management "stupid" without any supporting rationale.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    > You've made 4 posts bashing on Linux with more complaints about supposedly being attacked than actual substance about why you don't like Linux. I have repeatedly complained about Windows[0] in this thread, and the very second I mention not liking Linux people really seem to want to recommend me Linux distros or ask me to tell them why. I have never seen anyone do this for any reason other than performative argumentation. > At any rate, I would be genuinely curious to hear what specifically you don't like about Linux beyond tautological statements like not liking its paradigms and calling package management "stupid" without any supporting rationale. I don't even need supporting rationale for an opinion. I could say I don't like any of the distro logos and that would still be a perfectly valid reason not to want to use Linux. At least in a sane world it would, but Linux users apparently have some bug up their ass about needing everyone to agree with them about how great it is. [0] With great hostility and in the context of expecting it to eventually drive me to use Linux
    - not_kurt_godel 5y ago
      > I could say I don't like any of the distro logos and that would still be a perfectly valid reason not to want to use Linux It's not perfectly valid if the purpose is to have a discussion that's meaningful to other people who don't have your exact set of preferences and pecadilloes. Saying you don't like a logo isn't a useful piece of information because for 99% of people that's not going to be a reason to use or not use a piece of software. Either you don't realize that or you're being willfully combative for its own sake.
      - 5y ago
- alerighi 5y ago
  Package management is to me one of the biggest benefit of Linux. Whenever I have to deal with Windows/macOS machines I find myself in the middle ages having to install the software manually downloading it from the internet and having to keep it updated. Even now that Microsoft had finally integrated some sort of package management in Windows and a store, there are not even the Microsoft products such as Office or Visual Studio on it! While on Linux I type in my terminal: paru -S <software name> and install it. If the software for some reason is not packaged (very rare, since with the AUR repositories of ArchLinux there is everything) it's trivial to make a package and publish it so other people that have to use the same software can install it. On Windows each time I install the system from scratch I have to spend a day downloading and installing all the programs, on Linux I can install all the software that I need by simply launching a single one line command.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    To each their own. I like having the ability to install applications to different disks, and to have two different versions of the same application installed at the same time, among other things package managers and repos restrict.
    - Tau5 5y ago
      Good! You can do that on linux with AppImages, which are executables that store inside all the necessary data. You only double-click it and you open the app. You can copy, move, rename or whatever you want with the dile as it will work everywhere!
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
        Yes, I know what AppImages are. The problem with AppImage is that hardly anyone packages their software as an AppImage.
        xfer 5y ago
        Have you considered doing this for yourself? If this is your only complaint and the solution exists surely you could benefit from it. I highly doubt it's the package managers holding you back.
- Raineer 5y ago
  My only gut reaction to this is a bit of surprise. There are almost limitless variations of the "Linux Desktop", but Windows still wins out in your mind as the correct way to run a desktop. No judgment, just bemusement. I will always choose the freedom to configure over a set-in-stone approach.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    I wouldn't say that. I hate Windows these days quite a bit too, I just hate it less than I hate Linux Desktop. I also strongly disagree with the "limitless variations". Most Linux distros are just another distro (usually Ubuntu) pre-bundled with a specific set of packages. Almost all of them use the same shells, the same application distribution model, and roughly the same set of disparately developed software. The differences are largely cosmetic. > I will always choose the freedom to configure over a set-in-stone approach. Ironically, this is why I don't like package management and repos: I like to have complete freedom over what software I install and that model is restrictive. One of the things I like about Windows is that if I go to some rando's site where they've written some niche application, I have nearly 100% certainty that the executable I download from them will work without me doing anything special. In Linux I usually end up having to go through the hassle of creating a whole build environment (in a container because I'm not insane) to compile their github repo... after I hunt down and compile their dependencies that also weren't in my distro's repo of course.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  Package management only applies to system software though. It is 100% possible to download software to your home directory and run it from there, just like in Windows. Also, HN points are meaningless. It's better than reddit but people will still downvote good posts for the stupidest of reasons. It's better to just speak your mind and ignore the "consequences", if you can even call downvotes that.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    > It is 100% possible to download software to your home directory and run it from there, just like in Windows. Only if it has been compiled and/or packaged for such a use by someone, which is rare. The problem isn't technical, it is cultural. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this point.
- IIsi50MHz 5y ago
  Thank you for responding to the request for more info to satisfy curiosity. Operating system choice often _is_ a holy matter to people, and I'm sorry you seem to have gotten downvotes simply for mentioning your experience. One of the issues with Linux is that it is no more "an operating system" than an automobile engine is a car; myriad operating systems exist which contain the component named "Linux", and most of them are designed to cater either to people who love getting into all the possible customisations or to people who share most of the same preferences as the designer(s). The extreme customisability of most operating systems which include the Linux heart (kernel), tends to lead to inconsistent software behaviours and user interfaces. For instance, one OS with Linux might have _most_ applications respond to Ctrl-Q for "quit/exit", while a few stubbornly insist on Alt-F4, and sparse few use something else entirely. One result of this is that people's choice of a particular Linux-based OS and particular options (KDE vs. Gnome, Emacs vs. vi, ported vs native to their OS, and thousands more…) can also become a holy matter dear to their hearts. It's perfectly reasonable for anyone to turned off by or annoyed by aspects of a system that clash with their familiarity or use-case. I hope you get more gentle responses in the future. Cheers.
snuser 5y ago
My system76 laptop (lemp10) has crashed, bugged out, failed to wake from sleep, fully frozen, and just outright failed more often than windows10 ever has for me which is also less than any of my work macbook's have either linux is a nice operating system and the community developed aspect is neat but be real

I'm already getting downvotes just for mentioning the things I've already mentioned. Unfortunately this is the common reaction whenever anyone brings up having problems with the way Linux Desktop does things. It's apparently ok to complain about lacking hardware support because that's a problem people can dismiss easily with "just buy different hardware", but if you say something like you don't want to use Linux because you think package management is a stupid way to manage applications then people just want you to shut up.

arepublicadoceu 5y ago
> but if you say something like you don't want to use Linux because you think package management is a stupid way to manage applications then people just want you to shut up. In my experience people respond better when you actually explain and provides arguments to why you think “package management is a stupid way to manage applications” and not simply say this blanket statement. For instance, I believe that *not* having a package system is a stupid way to manage applications because: - you have to trust many more parties than a single repository; - you incentivize people to do unsafe things like running downloaded exes from sites; - now you need to also trust that no one tampered with the websites and have to manually checksum and verify authenticity of each application whereas a good package manager should do this for you; - Removing applications without package managers is a worse experience. Now I would love to hear your arguments and, maybe, change my mind.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  > In my experience people respond better when you actually explain and provides arguments to why you think “package management is a stupid way to manage applications” and not simply say this blanket statement. I have done this many times on HN, and it almost universally results in downvoting. > Now I would love to hear your arguments and, maybe, change my mind. Fine, whatever. I don't need the fake internet points. Let me start by saying my complaints here are specifically in regards to the way Linux packages, repos, and managers work to avoid someone from Haiku showing up to tell me I'm wrong: - Repos are no better than walled gardens except that they are typically maintained by unpaid third parties - Said unpaid third parties sometimes introduce bugs or arbitrary changes to the software - You can't install applications to different disks or have multiple versions of the same application - Copying applications from one computer to another is massively complicated because most package managers never consider this use case at all - Package managers encourage the kind of interdependency hell and reliance on fixed paths that makes them necessary in the first place - The proliferation of package formats and package managers has made packaging binaries for Linux an incredible pain in the ass To address your points specifically: > - you have to trust many more parties than a single repository; This is true even in the repo world. You have to trust the developer of the application and the maintainer of the package for that repo at the very least. There is no reason someone cannot curate a repository of software that is not managed by and tied to a package manager and, in fact, there are many of these to choose from. > - you incentivize people to do unsafe things like running downloaded exes from sites; Yes, but I think that speaks to a failure of non-mobile OSs to implement proper application sandboxing once the internet became the dominant distribution medium for applications. I also think this threat is given far too much weight in comparison to being constrained in your choice of software. > - now you need to also trust that no one tampered with the websites and have to manually checksum and verify authenticity of each application whereas a good package manager should do this for you; Yes. Again, I don't think this is a big deal, especially when compared to restricting my choice in software. The thing I think makes personal computers valuable is that people can install pretty much whatever they want, make their own stuff, and easily pass it around. Package management and repos overcomplicates this. > - Removing applications without package managers is a worse experience. Only under "installer/uninstaller" paradigms. "Portable Applications" in Windows, or Application Bundles on Mac or NeXT, or the original Macintosh's single-file applications, or RiscOS AppDirs, or even DOS's buncha-files-ina-folder paradigm make removing an application as simple as deleting a single object. Not to mention they make copying or moving applications, or running them on different media, as trivial as any file operation. I probably won't change your mind as a lot of this is subjective, equally your arguments do not sway me. Suffice it to say, the Linux community agrees with you, and that is part of the reason I don't want to use Linux.
  - joshuaissac 5y ago
    You can use the "buncha-files-ina-folder paradigm" on Linux and Unix as well, but generally, applications are written with the assumption that they will be installed at a particular location, and can unexpectedly fail if you put them elsewhere. The RPM Package Manager itself is an example of this. It can be configured to be installed to a custom location via the build system, but it has hard-coded paths in some scripts so the package manager would break when it hits this code months after appearing to work correctly.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      Right, theoretically Linux applications can work this way, there's even AppImage to really prove the point. The problem is that basically nothing in the Linux world does do that because it just isn't the way things are done. At the end of the day, it's the same difference to me.
      - guerrilla 5y ago
        Do you know about Snap and Flatpack? I think the latter may solve some of your problems. 1. https://snapcraft.io/ https://snapcraft.io/ 2. https://www.flatpak.org/ https://www.flatpak.org/
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28409524 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28409524
  - asddubs 5y ago
    good news for you is that linux is moving a bit more and more towards the portable application paradigm, with things like snap packages and AppImage. E.g. for texstudio I found that the version in my repos was outdated, so I just downloaded an AppImage file off their website and am using that now. Same for ultimaker cura. And you can use multiple versions in parallel.
not_kurt_godel 5y ago
You've made 4 posts bashing on Linux with more complaints about supposedly being attacked than actual substance about why you don't like Linux. Could it be that the backlash you're getting is a self-fulfilling prophecy? At any rate, I would be genuinely curious to hear what specifically you don't like about Linux beyond tautological statements like not liking its paradigms and calling package management "stupid" without any supporting rationale.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  > You've made 4 posts bashing on Linux with more complaints about supposedly being attacked than actual substance about why you don't like Linux. I have repeatedly complained about Windows[0] in this thread, and the very second I mention not liking Linux people really seem to want to recommend me Linux distros or ask me to tell them why. I have never seen anyone do this for any reason other than performative argumentation. > At any rate, I would be genuinely curious to hear what specifically you don't like about Linux beyond tautological statements like not liking its paradigms and calling package management "stupid" without any supporting rationale. I don't even need supporting rationale for an opinion. I could say I don't like any of the distro logos and that would still be a perfectly valid reason not to want to use Linux. At least in a sane world it would, but Linux users apparently have some bug up their ass about needing everyone to agree with them about how great it is. [0] With great hostility and in the context of expecting it to eventually drive me to use Linux
  - not_kurt_godel 5y ago
    > I could say I don't like any of the distro logos and that would still be a perfectly valid reason not to want to use Linux It's not perfectly valid if the purpose is to have a discussion that's meaningful to other people who don't have your exact set of preferences and pecadilloes. Saying you don't like a logo isn't a useful piece of information because for 99% of people that's not going to be a reason to use or not use a piece of software. Either you don't realize that or you're being willfully combative for its own sake.
    - 5y ago
alerighi 5y ago
Package management is to me one of the biggest benefit of Linux. Whenever I have to deal with Windows/macOS machines I find myself in the middle ages having to install the software manually downloading it from the internet and having to keep it updated. Even now that Microsoft had finally integrated some sort of package management in Windows and a store, there are not even the Microsoft products such as Office or Visual Studio on it! While on Linux I type in my terminal: paru -S <software name> and install it. If the software for some reason is not packaged (very rare, since with the AUR repositories of ArchLinux there is everything) it's trivial to make a package and publish it so other people that have to use the same software can install it. On Windows each time I install the system from scratch I have to spend a day downloading and installing all the programs, on Linux I can install all the software that I need by simply launching a single one line command.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  To each their own. I like having the ability to install applications to different disks, and to have two different versions of the same application installed at the same time, among other things package managers and repos restrict.
  - Tau5 5y ago
    Good! You can do that on linux with AppImages, which are executables that store inside all the necessary data. You only double-click it and you open the app. You can copy, move, rename or whatever you want with the dile as it will work everywhere!
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      Yes, I know what AppImages are. The problem with AppImage is that hardly anyone packages their software as an AppImage.
      - xfer 5y ago
        Have you considered doing this for yourself? If this is your only complaint and the solution exists surely you could benefit from it. I highly doubt it's the package managers holding you back.
Raineer 5y ago
My only gut reaction to this is a bit of surprise. There are almost limitless variations of the "Linux Desktop", but Windows still wins out in your mind as the correct way to run a desktop. No judgment, just bemusement. I will always choose the freedom to configure over a set-in-stone approach.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  I wouldn't say that. I hate Windows these days quite a bit too, I just hate it less than I hate Linux Desktop. I also strongly disagree with the "limitless variations". Most Linux distros are just another distro (usually Ubuntu) pre-bundled with a specific set of packages. Almost all of them use the same shells, the same application distribution model, and roughly the same set of disparately developed software. The differences are largely cosmetic. > I will always choose the freedom to configure over a set-in-stone approach. Ironically, this is why I don't like package management and repos: I like to have complete freedom over what software I install and that model is restrictive. One of the things I like about Windows is that if I go to some rando's site where they've written some niche application, I have nearly 100% certainty that the executable I download from them will work without me doing anything special. In Linux I usually end up having to go through the hassle of creating a whole build environment (in a container because I'm not insane) to compile their github repo... after I hunt down and compile their dependencies that also weren't in my distro's repo of course.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
Package management only applies to system software though. It is 100% possible to download software to your home directory and run it from there, just like in Windows. Also, HN points are meaningless. It's better than reddit but people will still downvote good posts for the stupidest of reasons. It's better to just speak your mind and ignore the "consequences", if you can even call downvotes that.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  > It is 100% possible to download software to your home directory and run it from there, just like in Windows. Only if it has been compiled and/or packaged for such a use by someone, which is rare. The problem isn't technical, it is cultural. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this point.
IIsi50MHz 5y ago
Thank you for responding to the request for more info to satisfy curiosity. Operating system choice often _is_ a holy matter to people, and I'm sorry you seem to have gotten downvotes simply for mentioning your experience. One of the issues with Linux is that it is no more "an operating system" than an automobile engine is a car; myriad operating systems exist which contain the component named "Linux", and most of them are designed to cater either to people who love getting into all the possible customisations or to people who share most of the same preferences as the designer(s). The extreme customisability of most operating systems which include the Linux heart (kernel), tends to lead to inconsistent software behaviours and user interfaces. For instance, one OS with Linux might have _most_ applications respond to Ctrl-Q for "quit/exit", while a few stubbornly insist on Alt-F4, and sparse few use something else entirely. One result of this is that people's choice of a particular Linux-based OS and particular options (KDE vs. Gnome, Emacs vs. vi, ported vs native to their OS, and thousands more…) can also become a holy matter dear to their hearts. It's perfectly reasonable for anyone to turned off by or annoyed by aspects of a system that clash with their familiarity or use-case. I hope you get more gentle responses in the future. Cheers.

snuser 5y ago

My system76 laptop (lemp10) has crashed, bugged out, failed to wake from sleep, fully frozen, and just outright failed more often than windows10 ever has for me which is also less than any of my work macbook's have either linux is a nice operating system and the community developed aspect is neat but be real