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You would think that, but facebook detects 20 million shares of this material per year. Presumably at least part of that group that shares the known material ar

by Joeri 5y ago

You would think that, but facebook detects 20 million shares of this material per year. Presumably at least part of that group that shares the known material are also abusing children and creating new material, so this does look like an effective detection method for finding some of the people who abuse children. https://www.missingkids.org/content/dam/missingkids/gethelp/2020-reports-by-esp.pdf https://www.missingkids.org/content/dam/missingkids/gethelp/...

jrockway 5y ago
I'm not convinced that's a good argument. Shouldn't every bag of coffee you buy include a camera that reports any illegal activity to the government? A lot of criminals drink coffee, after all!
- c7DJTLrn 5y ago
  We must mandate speed monitoring devices for every car sold. Each time the vehicle speed exceeds the speed limit we will deduct 100 social credit points from the owner's balance. Hundreds of thousands of people die each year due to filthy criminals driving too fast. Introducing this measure will save lives. If you are uncomfortable with this measure, you drive too fast.
  - jrockway 5y ago
    Very good point. Actually, the next version of iOS should include a feature to make sure that you don't roll through a stop sign at 1MPH at 3 o'clock in the morning. STOP means stop, not kind of look both ways and carefully evaluate the situation! An Authorized Phone Receipticle built into your car will ensure that the phone's camera is facing forward so our Machine Learning Artificial Intelligence can detect stop signs, and the accelerometers will detect whether or not you stopped completely. If you didn't, your device will do some bullshit with bitcoins or something eventually leading to it sending a report to the Apple Safe Driving Headquarters ("ASDHQ") where totally trained technicians that definitely have health insurance and get paid more than $1/hour will check the data to see if it's a false positive. If it's not a false positive, and BTW, from exactly zero hours of real world testing we have determined that the false positive rate is less than 1 in 1 trillion, we'll report you to our government partners who will take care of your reeducation from there. Driving is a privilege, not a right!!! Over ONE HUNDRED people die per year from people not coming to a complete stop at stop signs, and at Apple, we care!!!!!! We'll never let the screeching voices of the minority stop us from invading your privacy for no good reason. We like the screeching, it makes us feel important and relevant. As the inventors of a small computer with a battery in it, we consider ourselves better than God.
  - alexashka 5y ago
    You joke but if everyone had a tag, the speed limit could adjust itself in real time, enabling you to go faster when it is safe to do so and go slower when it isn't. In other words, we could improve the driving experience and save lives with a little bit of work if we had folks with a working brain in government and elsewhere.
    - jrockway 5y ago
      I think this exists already. It's just an LED sign where there is normally a speed limit sign, and it adjusts up and down depending on conditions.
foxfluff 5y ago
I have read Facebook's report on this. It's not 20 million shares of kids getting raped by adults. https://about.fb.com/news/2021/02/preventing-child-exploitation-on-our-apps/ https://about.fb.com/news/2021/02/preventing-child-exploitat... "We found that more than 90% of this content was the same as or visually similar to previously reported content. And copies of just six videos were responsible for more than half of the child exploitative content we reported in that time period." "we evaluated 150 accounts that we reported to NCMEC for uploading child exploitative content in July and August of 2020 and January 2021, and we estimate that more than 75% of these people did not exhibit malicious intent (i.e. did not intend to harm a child). Instead, they appeared to share for other reasons, such as outrage or in poor humor" So a lot of this is memetic spreading, not pedos and child abusers sharing their stash of porn. And people don't react to child porn by spreading it like a meme on Facebook, so what are these pictures that get shared a lot? What's happening is people find a funny/hilarious/outrageous picture and share that. Funny moments might happen when kids play with pets, for example. The other part is consenting teens sexting their own photos. And then there's some teens (e.g. 17-year-olds, which by the way is old enough to consent in some countries) getting accidentally shared along with adult porn by people who don't know the real age. https://research.fb.com/blog/2021/02/understanding-the-intentions-of-child-sexual-abuse-material-csam-sharers/ https://research.fb.com/blog/2021/02/understanding-the-inten... "Unintentional Offenders: This is a broad category of people who may not mean to cause harm to the child depicted in the CSAM share but are sharing out of humor, outrage, or ignorance. Example: User shares a CSAM meme of a child’s genitals being bitten by an animal because they think it’s funny. Minor Non-Exploitative Users: Children who are engaging in developmentally normative behaviour, that while technically illegal or against policy, is not inherently exploitative, but does contain risk. Example: Two 16 year olds sending sexual imagery to each other. They know each other from school and are currently in a relationship. Situational “Risky” Offenders: Individuals who habitually consume and share adult sexual content, and who come into contact with and share CSAM as part of this behaviour, potentially without awareness of the age of subjects in the imagery they have received or shared. Example: A user received CSAM that depicts a 17 year old, they are unaware that the content is CSAM. They reshare it in a group where people are sharing adult sexual content." So there's reason to think that the vast majority of this stuff isn't actually child porn in the sense that people think about it. It might be inappropriate to post, it might be technically illegal, but it's not what you think. And if it's not child porn, you can't make the case that it's creating a market for child abuse. By reporting it, you're not catching child rapists. I don't have a reference handy but I recall reading about the actual child porn that inevitably does get shared on every platform, much of it is posted by bots over VPNs or tor. So its volume isn't representative of the amount of child abusers on the network, and reporting these accounts is not likely to lead to anything. Also: In May 2019 the UK’s Independent Enquiry into Child Sexual Abuse heard that reports received by the National Crime Authority from the United States hotline NCMEC included large numbers of non-actionable images including cartoons, along with personally identifiable information of those responsible for uploading them. According to Swiss police, up to 90% of the reports received from NCMEC relate to innocent images. Source: https://www.article19.org/resources/inhope-members-reporting-artwork-as-child-sexual-abuse/ https://www.article19.org/resources/inhope-members-reporting... Out of those remaining 10%, how much leads to convictions? Very little. Sorry can't dig up a source right now. Point is: millions of reports lead to mostly nothing. Meanwhile, children continue to be abused for real, and the vast majority of those who want to keep producing, sharing, and storing such imagery surely have heard the news and will find a different way to do it. Platform operators are incentivized to report everything, if they're playing the reporting game. Tick box "nudity or sexual conduct", tick box "contains minors"? Report it. It doesn't help the discussion at all that everything involving nudity and minors (even cartoons) gets lumped together as "CSAM" with actual child porn produced by adults who physically abuse kids.

by Joeri 5y ago

jrockway 5y ago

I'm not convinced that's a good argument. Shouldn't every bag of coffee you buy include a camera that reports any illegal activity to the government? A lot of criminals drink coffee, after all!

c7DJTLrn 5y ago
We must mandate speed monitoring devices for every car sold. Each time the vehicle speed exceeds the speed limit we will deduct 100 social credit points from the owner's balance. Hundreds of thousands of people die each year due to filthy criminals driving too fast. Introducing this measure will save lives. If you are uncomfortable with this measure, you drive too fast.
- jrockway 5y ago
  Very good point. Actually, the next version of iOS should include a feature to make sure that you don't roll through a stop sign at 1MPH at 3 o'clock in the morning. STOP means stop, not kind of look both ways and carefully evaluate the situation! An Authorized Phone Receipticle built into your car will ensure that the phone's camera is facing forward so our Machine Learning Artificial Intelligence can detect stop signs, and the accelerometers will detect whether or not you stopped completely. If you didn't, your device will do some bullshit with bitcoins or something eventually leading to it sending a report to the Apple Safe Driving Headquarters ("ASDHQ") where totally trained technicians that definitely have health insurance and get paid more than $1/hour will check the data to see if it's a false positive. If it's not a false positive, and BTW, from exactly zero hours of real world testing we have determined that the false positive rate is less than 1 in 1 trillion, we'll report you to our government partners who will take care of your reeducation from there. Driving is a privilege, not a right!!! Over ONE HUNDRED people die per year from people not coming to a complete stop at stop signs, and at Apple, we care!!!!!! We'll never let the screeching voices of the minority stop us from invading your privacy for no good reason. We like the screeching, it makes us feel important and relevant. As the inventors of a small computer with a battery in it, we consider ourselves better than God.
- alexashka 5y ago
  You joke but if everyone had a tag, the speed limit could adjust itself in real time, enabling you to go faster when it is safe to do so and go slower when it isn't. In other words, we could improve the driving experience and save lives with a little bit of work if we had folks with a working brain in government and elsewhere.
  - jrockway 5y ago
    I think this exists already. It's just an LED sign where there is normally a speed limit sign, and it adjusts up and down depending on conditions.

foxfluff 5y ago

I have read Facebook's report on this. It's not 20 million shares of kids getting raped by adults. https://about.fb.com/news/2021/02/preventing-child-exploitation-on-our-apps/ https://about.fb.com/news/2021/02/preventing-child-exploitat... "We found that more than 90% of this content was the same as or visually similar to previously reported content. And copies of just six videos were responsible for more than half of the child exploitative content we reported in that time period." "we evaluated 150 accounts that we reported to NCMEC for uploading child exploitative content in July and August of 2020 and January 2021, and we estimate that more than 75% of these people did not exhibit malicious intent (i.e. did not intend to harm a child). Instead, they appeared to share for other reasons, such as outrage or in poor humor" So a lot of this is memetic spreading, not pedos and child abusers sharing their stash of porn. And people don't react to child porn by spreading it like a meme on Facebook, so what are these pictures that get shared a lot? What's happening is people find a funny/hilarious/outrageous picture and share that. Funny moments might happen when kids play with pets, for example. The other part is consenting teens sexting their own photos. And then there's some teens (e.g. 17-year-olds, which by the way is old enough to consent in some countries) getting accidentally shared along with adult porn by people who don't know the real age. https://research.fb.com/blog/2021/02/understanding-the-intentions-of-child-sexual-abuse-material-csam-sharers/ https://research.fb.com/blog/2021/02/understanding-the-inten... "Unintentional Offenders: This is a broad category of people who may not mean to cause harm to the child depicted in the CSAM share but are sharing out of humor, outrage, or ignorance. Example: User shares a CSAM meme of a child’s genitals being bitten by an animal because they think it’s funny. Minor Non-Exploitative Users: Children who are engaging in developmentally normative behaviour, that while technically illegal or against policy, is not inherently exploitative, but does contain risk. Example: Two 16 year olds sending sexual imagery to each other. They know each other from school and are currently in a relationship. Situational “Risky” Offenders: Individuals who habitually consume and share adult sexual content, and who come into contact with and share CSAM as part of this behaviour, potentially without awareness of the age of subjects in the imagery they have received or shared. Example: A user received CSAM that depicts a 17 year old, they are unaware that the content is CSAM. They reshare it in a group where people are sharing adult sexual content." So there's reason to think that the vast majority of this stuff isn't actually child porn in the sense that people think about it. It might be inappropriate to post, it might be technically illegal, but it's not what you think. And if it's not child porn, you can't make the case that it's creating a market for child abuse. By reporting it, you're not catching child rapists. I don't have a reference handy but I recall reading about the actual child porn that inevitably does get shared on every platform, much of it is posted by bots over VPNs or tor. So its volume isn't representative of the amount of child abusers on the network, and reporting these accounts is not likely to lead to anything. Also: In May 2019 the UK’s Independent Enquiry into Child Sexual Abuse heard that reports received by the National Crime Authority from the United States hotline NCMEC included large numbers of non-actionable images including cartoons, along with personally identifiable information of those responsible for uploading them. According to Swiss police, up to 90% of the reports received from NCMEC relate to innocent images. Source: https://www.article19.org/resources/inhope-members-reporting-artwork-as-child-sexual-abuse/ https://www.article19.org/resources/inhope-members-reporting... Out of those remaining 10%, how much leads to convictions? Very little. Sorry can't dig up a source right now. Point is: millions of reports lead to mostly nothing. Meanwhile, children continue to be abused for real, and the vast majority of those who want to keep producing, sharing, and storing such imagery surely have heard the news and will find a different way to do it. Platform operators are incentivized to report everything, if they're playing the reporting game. Tick box "nudity or sexual conduct", tick box "contains minors"? Report it. It doesn't help the discussion at all that everything involving nudity and minors (even cartoons) gets lumped together as "CSAM" with actual child porn produced by adults who physically abuse kids.