7 ms·

Mods, please correct headline. This hardly a story about Amazon. It's a story of how Northern California's choice not to prosecute theft has resulted in a mas

by JackFr 5y ago

Mods, please correct headline. This hardly a story about Amazon. It's a story of how Northern California's choice not to prosecute theft has resulted in a massive increase in criminal activity. That CVS has to privately hire security in the face of $10 million/year of goods being brazenly looted out of its stores has little to do with any Amazon policy and more to do with the policies adopted by local district attorneys.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
The clickbait/bias just gets more and more brazen.
adolph 5y ago
Large numbers without a comparison are difficult to understand. Is 10M a large or small number in this context? CA has 1,180 CVS pharmacies. [0] Northern CA has 40% of CA pop. [1] Assuming regular distribution of CVSes in CA, there are 472 in Northern CA. 10M is 21k/store. Is that a lot? Not certain. 0. https://www.scrapehero.com/largest-pharmacies-in-the-us/ https://www.scrapehero.com/largest-pharmacies-in-the-us/ 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_California
CrimsonRain 5y ago
100% this.
axus 5y ago
I wonder if the savings to society for police/court time is worth the increased cost of goods from shops paying for their own security? Will this become another barrier to entry for small businesses?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Can you link to some sources on this? edit: I'd seen this mentioned recently, but hadn't realised it was a long running culture war thing so it had already been discredited by research years ago: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2018/05/22/states-can-safely-raise-their-felony-theft-thresholds-research-shows https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/...
- nitrogen 5y ago
  That's 2018. Wr're here in 2021 watching videos of stores being actively raided.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    Have you got any videos of statistical trends or other evidence that what you believe is actually true? Or are we just working from viral anecdata?
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      > According to federal data, adults with substance-abuse disorders make up just 2.6 percent of the total population but 72 percent of all jail inmates sentenced for property crimes. Addicts are 29 times more likely to commit property crimes than the average American. Furthermore, as the Bureau of Justice Statistics found, “[39 percent of jail inmates] held for property offenses said they committed the crime for money for drugs”—the most common single motivation for crime throughout the justice system. In other news, the Sacklers got away with making Billions from creatimg addicts.
      - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
        Just one more reason why we should be providing legal drugs to addicts, instead of feeding the enormous black market.
    - imgabe 5y ago
      Walgreens and Target and other retailers are shutting down stores and changing the hours so they close earlier. Presumably they’re not doing that because they watched a viral video.
dls2016 5y ago
Wake me when wage theft is prosecuted anywhere near as seriously as shoplifting. Both have been estimated to cost the economy around $40 billion per year in the US. (Simply search “shoplifting cost in us” or “wage theft cost in us” and find your favorite estimate. They’re surprisingly close.)
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Wake me when wage theft is prosecuted anywhere near as seriously as shoplifting Given the article is about the effects of not prosecuting shoplifting, time to wake up?
  - dls2016 5y ago
    The article also describes some companies forming their own quasi-police departments staffed with former cops. This country is in no danger of prosecutors around the country failing to prosecute shoplifting. But the country is in danger of these quasi-police forces extending their reach. There are people posting here working on automated checkout systems which will absolutely be used to perform more general intelligence... either for the company's or The Company's purposes. Also... are we to believe that organized crime rings are a problem that the courts are unable to deal with because of some meddling prosecutor? Loss from retail shipping was one of the mafia's prime rackets! Jimmy Hoffa was the IBT president!
mint2 5y ago
How much is it DAs vs cops just not wanting to do their job to prove what they said would happen is true? Cops don’t always arrest based on the law, but what they feel like doing. See Oregon where they decided not to police proud boy protests and tend to arrest anti-white supremacist type protestors much more. How much is it the cops found they can prove their own point? If I make a bet that I’ll get last in a race, I’ll run slower. If one claims some policy will slow them down and They don’t actually have an incentive to win, Then there’s a chance they’ll slow down to be right so people will do what They say in the future. What incentive do cops have to arrest or charge theft when cops keep saying it’s CA laws that are causing thefts to rise? They can make themselves seem right by not arresting people.
- google234123 5y ago
  The DAs literally don't prosecute people. It's not the cops.
- sabarn01 5y ago
  My leo friends have said its morally wrong to arrest someone for something they won't be prosecuted for.
busyant 5y ago
There's reasonable evidence that this is how the Sicilian Mafia started: lack of effective state enforcement of laws and property rights... Creating a situation where private security forces arise, offering protection from gangs of thieves and perhaps protection from the security force itself. Obviously, this is not what cvs is doing, but lack of effective law enforcement can lead to unusual and unexpected "solutions."
SavantIdiot 5y ago
> choice not to prosecute theft Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. "The judicial branch of California explains on its page about Prop 47 that the new law “reclassifies certain theft and drug possession offenses from felonies to misdemeanors.” Thanks to Prop 47, shoplifting offenses involving property valued at less than $950 are prosecuted as misdemeanors, not felonies, but they are still prosecuted. Such offenses are punishable by up to six months in county jail." Get your facts straight before spreading disinformation.
- avalys 5y ago
  That's nice. Now, tell me, how many misdemeanor thefts has the San Francisco County DA actually prosecuted since he's been in office?
- YuriNiyazov 5y ago
  It doesn't matter what the judicial branch says on paper. What matters is the process. In California, the decision to prosecute a misdemeanor must happen within 24 hours of that misdemeanor happening, otherwise it won't be pursued? Reclassifying something as a misdemeanor, when combined with other policy choices around misdemeanors, means that a fraction of them are actually prosecuted. So, you get your facts straight, please.
- tylerhou 5y ago
  Also worth noting that California's felony threshold is still much lower than most states (i.e. it's easier to get charged with a felony), including conservative ones that are usually "tough on crime." And the Bay Area's cost of living is higher as well. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/10/felony-thresholds/ https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/10/felony-threshol...
- marcusverus 5y ago
  That's a nice unattributed quote you've got there. Now for some actual data that say the exact opposite: "The numbers show the prosecution rate for shoplifting cases involving a misdemeanor petty theft charge for a loss of $950 or less fell under [San Francisco DA Chesa] Boudin, from 70 percent under former District Attorney George Gascon in 2019 to 44 percent in 2020 and 50 percent as of mid-June 2021. Prosecutors filed charges in 116 of 266 cases presented by police involving petty theft in 2020, compared to 450 of 647 cases in 2019, according to the data provided by the District Attorney’s Office." https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/data-shows-chesa-boudin-prosecutes-fewer-shoplifters-than-predecessor/ https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/data-shows-chesa-boudin-pros...
tylerhou 5y ago
Any data to back up your claim (that rate of theft is positively caused by "less" prosecution)? Would like to see an analysis that controls for confounders as well (like effects from a pandemic).

by JackFr 5y ago

lotsofpulp 5y ago

The clickbait/bias just gets more and more brazen.

adolph 5y ago

Large numbers without a comparison are difficult to understand. Is 10M a large or small number in this context? CA has 1,180 CVS pharmacies. [0] Northern CA has 40% of CA pop. [1] Assuming regular distribution of CVSes in CA, there are 472 in Northern CA. 10M is 21k/store. Is that a lot? Not certain. 0. https://www.scrapehero.com/largest-pharmacies-in-the-us/ https://www.scrapehero.com/largest-pharmacies-in-the-us/ 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_California

CrimsonRain 5y ago

100% this.

axus 5y ago

I wonder if the savings to society for police/court time is worth the increased cost of goods from shops paying for their own security? Will this become another barrier to entry for small businesses?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

Can you link to some sources on this? edit: I'd seen this mentioned recently, but hadn't realised it was a long running culture war thing so it had already been discredited by research years ago: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2018/05/22/states-can-safely-raise-their-felony-theft-thresholds-research-shows https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/...

nitrogen 5y ago
That's 2018. Wr're here in 2021 watching videos of stores being actively raided.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  Have you got any videos of statistical trends or other evidence that what you believe is actually true? Or are we just working from viral anecdata?
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    > According to federal data, adults with substance-abuse disorders make up just 2.6 percent of the total population but 72 percent of all jail inmates sentenced for property crimes. Addicts are 29 times more likely to commit property crimes than the average American. Furthermore, as the Bureau of Justice Statistics found, “[39 percent of jail inmates] held for property offenses said they committed the crime for money for drugs”—the most common single motivation for crime throughout the justice system. In other news, the Sacklers got away with making Billions from creatimg addicts.
    - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
      Just one more reason why we should be providing legal drugs to addicts, instead of feeding the enormous black market.
  - imgabe 5y ago
    Walgreens and Target and other retailers are shutting down stores and changing the hours so they close earlier. Presumably they’re not doing that because they watched a viral video.

dls2016 5y ago

Wake me when wage theft is prosecuted anywhere near as seriously as shoplifting. Both have been estimated to cost the economy around $40 billion per year in the US. (Simply search “shoplifting cost in us” or “wage theft cost in us” and find your favorite estimate. They’re surprisingly close.)

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> Wake me when wage theft is prosecuted anywhere near as seriously as shoplifting Given the article is about the effects of not prosecuting shoplifting, time to wake up?
- dls2016 5y ago
  The article also describes some companies forming their own quasi-police departments staffed with former cops. This country is in no danger of prosecutors around the country failing to prosecute shoplifting. But the country is in danger of these quasi-police forces extending their reach. There are people posting here working on automated checkout systems which will absolutely be used to perform more general intelligence... either for the company's or The Company's purposes. Also... are we to believe that organized crime rings are a problem that the courts are unable to deal with because of some meddling prosecutor? Loss from retail shipping was one of the mafia's prime rackets! Jimmy Hoffa was the IBT president!

mint2 5y ago

How much is it DAs vs cops just not wanting to do their job to prove what they said would happen is true? Cops don’t always arrest based on the law, but what they feel like doing. See Oregon where they decided not to police proud boy protests and tend to arrest anti-white supremacist type protestors much more. How much is it the cops found they can prove their own point? If I make a bet that I’ll get last in a race, I’ll run slower. If one claims some policy will slow them down and They don’t actually have an incentive to win, Then there’s a chance they’ll slow down to be right so people will do what They say in the future. What incentive do cops have to arrest or charge theft when cops keep saying it’s CA laws that are causing thefts to rise? They can make themselves seem right by not arresting people.

google234123 5y ago
The DAs literally don't prosecute people. It's not the cops.
sabarn01 5y ago
My leo friends have said its morally wrong to arrest someone for something they won't be prosecuted for.

busyant 5y ago

There's reasonable evidence that this is how the Sicilian Mafia started: lack of effective state enforcement of laws and property rights... Creating a situation where private security forces arise, offering protection from gangs of thieves and perhaps protection from the security force itself. Obviously, this is not what cvs is doing, but lack of effective law enforcement can lead to unusual and unexpected "solutions."

SavantIdiot 5y ago

> choice not to prosecute theft Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. "The judicial branch of California explains on its page about Prop 47 that the new law “reclassifies certain theft and drug possession offenses from felonies to misdemeanors.” Thanks to Prop 47, shoplifting offenses involving property valued at less than $950 are prosecuted as misdemeanors, not felonies, but they are still prosecuted. Such offenses are punishable by up to six months in county jail." Get your facts straight before spreading disinformation.

avalys 5y ago
That's nice. Now, tell me, how many misdemeanor thefts has the San Francisco County DA actually prosecuted since he's been in office?
YuriNiyazov 5y ago
It doesn't matter what the judicial branch says on paper. What matters is the process. In California, the decision to prosecute a misdemeanor must happen within 24 hours of that misdemeanor happening, otherwise it won't be pursued? Reclassifying something as a misdemeanor, when combined with other policy choices around misdemeanors, means that a fraction of them are actually prosecuted. So, you get your facts straight, please.
tylerhou 5y ago
Also worth noting that California's felony threshold is still much lower than most states (i.e. it's easier to get charged with a felony), including conservative ones that are usually "tough on crime." And the Bay Area's cost of living is higher as well. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/10/felony-thresholds/ https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/10/felony-threshol...
marcusverus 5y ago
That's a nice unattributed quote you've got there. Now for some actual data that say the exact opposite: "The numbers show the prosecution rate for shoplifting cases involving a misdemeanor petty theft charge for a loss of $950 or less fell under [San Francisco DA Chesa] Boudin, from 70 percent under former District Attorney George Gascon in 2019 to 44 percent in 2020 and 50 percent as of mid-June 2021. Prosecutors filed charges in 116 of 266 cases presented by police involving petty theft in 2020, compared to 450 of 647 cases in 2019, according to the data provided by the District Attorney’s Office." https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/data-shows-chesa-boudin-prosecutes-fewer-shoplifters-than-predecessor/ https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/data-shows-chesa-boudin-pros...

tylerhou 5y ago

Any data to back up your claim (that rate of theft is positively caused by "less" prosecution)? Would like to see an analysis that controls for confounders as well (like effects from a pandemic).