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Oh boy, it feels like someone is ringing bells in my head because of aligned thoughts. Let me share an experience. In 2010, I worked on a project for a large b

Oh boy, it feels like someone is ringing bells in my head because of aligned thoughts. Let me share an experience. In 2010, I worked on a project for a large business in the US(Fortune 100). The process was set so rigidly that it worked well, but I was among the group of people who were mad at it saying”why is this so rigid? Trust us and let us do things faster!!”. Context : There were change management rules in place. The software was to be released only on a regular cadence of about 6 months, only after thorough integration tests, and approval from the change mgmt board. Should anything go wrong in “move to prod” there will be representation from dev, QA, Ops, change mgmt, and Mgmt orgs to immediately decide on actions until the release to prod is successful. There will be thorough documentation of what to do (run books) on what changes occurred, what their impact could be and how to rollback if something unexpected occurs. It was always a party after a successful release :-) Trust me there were a lot of bugs, but they were mostly found and fixed during the laborious QA and integration tests by people whose job it was. Fast forward to now, I am a “Cloud Engineer” in a small team that does everything from app development to building CI pipelines to running services on AWS to being on-call to keep them running. I must say, I wish for the old days back. Sure, it was slow and laborious, but it resulted in better outcomes and manageability. IMHO, it also resulted in better reliability of software due to the diligence done by several layers. It is easy to say do the same just faster in your small team. But, in practicality it just doesn’t happen. I work on setting up Observability one week, then onto designing infra for a new service, then onto some development and so on. I feel like my scope would have been limited, and I would have had an easier time becoming an expert at something than becoming so broad skilled like I am today. Sometimes, old, slow, and mature is not so bad. Not everyone needs to follow the FAANG SV companies to be successful.

wayoutthere 5y ago
Here here. If the bulk of your “products” are for internal consumers, you likely aren’t paying enough to attract talent who know how to operate in the the FAANG model. I like to distinguish between “product developers” (i.e. building products for consumers with guaranteed scale, so do it right the first time) and “project developers” (get it done ASAP and cut the corners you need to do so). In the “project developer” world, 50-75% of your requirements gathering happens before a line of code is written. There is usually a “right way” to implement a process of which technology is only one component and figuring that out as you go will actually slow down the project due to the maker / manager schedule conflict. True “agile” in this environment just leads to scope creep as there usually aren’t dedicated product owners to say no to every little request. I’ve stopped pushing agile as hard because the corporates simply can’t afford the kind of engineers to make it work correctly, and they don’t have the roles required to gather and feed requirements to a dev team in an agile format. Sprints are a good way to time-box feature development, but most business projects work better with a more waterfall approach. Your customers and project plan operate under waterfall so there’s less downside to begin with.
- bdavis__ 5y ago
  excellent comments. instead of straight waterfall, i would suggest a time boxed requirements phase, followed by incremental development with a reasonable cadence (dictated by the product; web might be 2 weeks, more serious domains might be 90 days). you need iteration, but having a solid grounding on what you are going to build eliminates churn.
- reacharavindh 5y ago
  Great comment about “Project developers” and “Product developers”. It is almost an entirely different art to get the requirements right by iterating on a project, and bringing out a solution to life versus engineering a scalable, maintainable product that evolves after a good start. I never had to think of such distinction. Waterfall model has its downsides in extracting the requirements out properly whereas the Agile approach(the little I have seen of it) seems to lose the layered stability of a waterfall based approach.
ByteWelder 5y ago
> I must say, I wish for the old days back. Sure, it was slow and laborious, but it resulted in better outcomes and manageability. IMHO, it also resulted in better reliability of software due to the diligence done by several layers. Those were also the days where it took many years to go from Java 6 to Java 8. Or perhaps to try out Kotlin. They were the days where legacy code was the norm, and we kept supporting it because nobody dared to change anything for the better. In practice, that's just not something you can maintain in a competitive market, because your competitors _will_ use new technologies and faster/better development processes. "it just works" might be good enough for maintaining your application, but will it be good enough to find people willing to work in that code base or that environment? I work for a large business where both the old and new practices are in place (mostly the new ones, though). Focusing on "going fast" is definitely not a good idea, but I believe there's a sweet spot in between.
- reacharavindh 5y ago
  Sure, mature processes encourage tech stagnation, and discourage even beneficial changes as collateral damage. But, as you say there is line somewhere at which project should move on from "Go fast, ship often, change much and get feature-rich" to "focus on correctness, stable releases, actually maintain our existing features". Perhaps it is really a cycle of both and missing one for the other leads to problems.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  All code is legacy code. As soon as you start changing the existing code...it is legacy. I'm on a project now that has not released to prod. It has a lot of new legacy code.

wayoutthere 5y ago

Here here. If the bulk of your “products” are for internal consumers, you likely aren’t paying enough to attract talent who know how to operate in the the FAANG model. I like to distinguish between “product developers” (i.e. building products for consumers with guaranteed scale, so do it right the first time) and “project developers” (get it done ASAP and cut the corners you need to do so). In the “project developer” world, 50-75% of your requirements gathering happens before a line of code is written. There is usually a “right way” to implement a process of which technology is only one component and figuring that out as you go will actually slow down the project due to the maker / manager schedule conflict. True “agile” in this environment just leads to scope creep as there usually aren’t dedicated product owners to say no to every little request. I’ve stopped pushing agile as hard because the corporates simply can’t afford the kind of engineers to make it work correctly, and they don’t have the roles required to gather and feed requirements to a dev team in an agile format. Sprints are a good way to time-box feature development, but most business projects work better with a more waterfall approach. Your customers and project plan operate under waterfall so there’s less downside to begin with.

bdavis__ 5y ago
excellent comments. instead of straight waterfall, i would suggest a time boxed requirements phase, followed by incremental development with a reasonable cadence (dictated by the product; web might be 2 weeks, more serious domains might be 90 days). you need iteration, but having a solid grounding on what you are going to build eliminates churn.
reacharavindh 5y ago
Great comment about “Project developers” and “Product developers”. It is almost an entirely different art to get the requirements right by iterating on a project, and bringing out a solution to life versus engineering a scalable, maintainable product that evolves after a good start. I never had to think of such distinction. Waterfall model has its downsides in extracting the requirements out properly whereas the Agile approach(the little I have seen of it) seems to lose the layered stability of a waterfall based approach.

ByteWelder 5y ago

> I must say, I wish for the old days back. Sure, it was slow and laborious, but it resulted in better outcomes and manageability. IMHO, it also resulted in better reliability of software due to the diligence done by several layers. Those were also the days where it took many years to go from Java 6 to Java 8. Or perhaps to try out Kotlin. They were the days where legacy code was the norm, and we kept supporting it because nobody dared to change anything for the better. In practice, that's just not something you can maintain in a competitive market, because your competitors _will_ use new technologies and faster/better development processes. "it just works" might be good enough for maintaining your application, but will it be good enough to find people willing to work in that code base or that environment? I work for a large business where both the old and new practices are in place (mostly the new ones, though). Focusing on "going fast" is definitely not a good idea, but I believe there's a sweet spot in between.

reacharavindh 5y ago
Sure, mature processes encourage tech stagnation, and discourage even beneficial changes as collateral damage. But, as you say there is line somewhere at which project should move on from "Go fast, ship often, change much and get feature-rich" to "focus on correctness, stable releases, actually maintain our existing features". Perhaps it is really a cycle of both and missing one for the other leads to problems.
datavirtue 5y ago
All code is legacy code. As soon as you start changing the existing code...it is legacy. I'm on a project now that has not released to prod. It has a lot of new legacy code.