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> Critiquing tone and body language is straight up junk. Society has an expectation of what various things look or sound like, however, in a neuro-divergent fi

> Critiquing tone and body language is straight up junk. Society has an expectation of what various things look or sound like, however, in a neuro-divergent field you should expect deviation from these things. Maybe even celebrate it. This is all fine and good, until you have to communicate with people who are not engineers. Not being able to communicate effectively with non-tech people, whatever the reason is, is certainly going to be a career-limiting factor. You can celebrate it all you want, but you also need to acknowledge the reality of the situation.

kodah 5y ago
Personally speaking, I think people nannying each other on communication is a real drag. Whether it's language, tone, or body language policing it's highly subjective, rarely constructive, and fairly useless outside of filling some imaginary mold society would like us to fill at a given moment in time.
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  Sure, and I totally get that. If my manager came to me and said I had a perma-scowl and my voice fluctuated too much in pitch, my first question would be "well, okay, but what exactly am I supposed to do about that?" (Edit: I noticed, too, that I definitely scowled when I was thinking about that!) Granted, I don't think I'd be posing that question to my manager, but to my therapist instead. At the same time, though, it looks like you've already experienced some consequences because of these things: > I subsequently was not awarded a raise I was promised despite delivering on numerous advancements technologically (and monetarily), the program I was involved with was dissolved, and there was talk of reassigning me. This is what I was talking about regarding it being a career-limiting factor, and acknowledging the situation. You can say it's bullshit all you want (and, for the record, I agree with you on that), but, in this case, you've seen first hand what can happen when you don't fit that imaginary mold. And, I would claim that, at least in this instance, it was constructively communicated to you, since you mentioned making changes and subsequently getting better results. Whether we like it or not, people pick up on things like body language and vocal intonations. If you're lucky, not conforming to peoples' expectations there will make you seem "odd," or maybe "eccentric." If you're not, then, further down the scale of reactions you may receive could include thinking your manner of personal interaction is "weird," "unsettling," or, even "creepy." And, these are all serious problems if you ever want to hope to communicate with and be taken seriously by the majority of people. Again, I want to reiterate that I agree with you, and this is all basically bullshit. But, like it or not, that's the game you have to play if you want to get your ideas across to people.
  - kodah 5y ago
    My point in sharing that story at all was that I perceive that as an unfair societal expectation problem, not one born out of sexism, but I'm a case study of one. While the things this director rattled off were taken of note, "consequences" would've been good to stop at a conversation. They became non-constructive when they went too far, especially for something far out of my control. The biggest change I made was not interviewing at product or traditional businesses. Engineering firms tend to not have these problems. I once regarded Apple as an engineering firm, but it could be argued they've grown to such a size that they lost homogeneity that would otherwise benefit them in these scenarios. Thanks for the thoughts regardless.
- burnished 5y ago
  It is a real drag. It also feels.. important? I guess I know what kind of feedback you are talking about because you call it nannying, but I know I've gotten feedback on how I come across, and it was unpleasant to hear, but after acting on it I noticed I got better results from social interactions. To be genuine, when I was younger there were people that I thought were cool that would do or fall into accents at times, so I tried doing it too. I was bluntly informed that it was 'not cute', which hurt, but frankly I'm grateful. Conversely I've also been told stuff that boiled down to fitting a mold, working customer service or delivery and being told that tattoos weren't professional while consistently seeing doctors or other 'real' professionals with tattoos. I feel like the dividing line kind of comes down to the difference between "this is how I personally interpret and feel about your actions/communication" and "this is what I suspect an imaginary other desires".
  - kodah 5y ago
    If it helps, this type of nannying conduct stopped when I went to engineering focused firms instead of product and traditional businesses. Why it happened at Apple eludes me, but I suspect that once an engineering firm grows to a certain size it's culture cannot be sustained homogeneously.

kodah 5y ago

Personally speaking, I think people nannying each other on communication is a real drag. Whether it's language, tone, or body language policing it's highly subjective, rarely constructive, and fairly useless outside of filling some imaginary mold society would like us to fill at a given moment in time.

actually_a_dog 5y ago
Sure, and I totally get that. If my manager came to me and said I had a perma-scowl and my voice fluctuated too much in pitch, my first question would be "well, okay, but what exactly am I supposed to do about that?" (Edit: I noticed, too, that I definitely scowled when I was thinking about that!) Granted, I don't think I'd be posing that question to my manager, but to my therapist instead. At the same time, though, it looks like you've already experienced some consequences because of these things: > I subsequently was not awarded a raise I was promised despite delivering on numerous advancements technologically (and monetarily), the program I was involved with was dissolved, and there was talk of reassigning me. This is what I was talking about regarding it being a career-limiting factor, and acknowledging the situation. You can say it's bullshit all you want (and, for the record, I agree with you on that), but, in this case, you've seen first hand what can happen when you don't fit that imaginary mold. And, I would claim that, at least in this instance, it was constructively communicated to you, since you mentioned making changes and subsequently getting better results. Whether we like it or not, people pick up on things like body language and vocal intonations. If you're lucky, not conforming to peoples' expectations there will make you seem "odd," or maybe "eccentric." If you're not, then, further down the scale of reactions you may receive could include thinking your manner of personal interaction is "weird," "unsettling," or, even "creepy." And, these are all serious problems if you ever want to hope to communicate with and be taken seriously by the majority of people. Again, I want to reiterate that I agree with you, and this is all basically bullshit. But, like it or not, that's the game you have to play if you want to get your ideas across to people.
- kodah 5y ago
  My point in sharing that story at all was that I perceive that as an unfair societal expectation problem, not one born out of sexism, but I'm a case study of one. While the things this director rattled off were taken of note, "consequences" would've been good to stop at a conversation. They became non-constructive when they went too far, especially for something far out of my control. The biggest change I made was not interviewing at product or traditional businesses. Engineering firms tend to not have these problems. I once regarded Apple as an engineering firm, but it could be argued they've grown to such a size that they lost homogeneity that would otherwise benefit them in these scenarios. Thanks for the thoughts regardless.
burnished 5y ago
It is a real drag. It also feels.. important? I guess I know what kind of feedback you are talking about because you call it nannying, but I know I've gotten feedback on how I come across, and it was unpleasant to hear, but after acting on it I noticed I got better results from social interactions. To be genuine, when I was younger there were people that I thought were cool that would do or fall into accents at times, so I tried doing it too. I was bluntly informed that it was 'not cute', which hurt, but frankly I'm grateful. Conversely I've also been told stuff that boiled down to fitting a mold, working customer service or delivery and being told that tattoos weren't professional while consistently seeing doctors or other 'real' professionals with tattoos. I feel like the dividing line kind of comes down to the difference between "this is how I personally interpret and feel about your actions/communication" and "this is what I suspect an imaginary other desires".
- kodah 5y ago
  If it helps, this type of nannying conduct stopped when I went to engineering focused firms instead of product and traditional businesses. Why it happened at Apple eludes me, but I suspect that once an engineering firm grows to a certain size it's culture cannot be sustained homogeneously.